Christians--the persecuted majority

May Minty Green’s Great Wombat in the Sky forgive me, but I am going to get involved in this thread.

May Gaudere’s Invisible Pink Unicorn forgive me, but I am going to state publicly that [gasp] I agree with Satan.

FoG, as evidently you are already beginning to realize (and a good thing, too, IMO :slight_smile: ), “persecution” is not the same thing as “harassment” or “rudeness”. When you plop yourself down at a table in the cafeteria and ostentatiously open your Bible and sit there reading, and somebody at the next table makes a rude remark, that’s not persecution, or even harassment–that’s just rudeness.

“Persecution” is when the manager at Burger King won’t hire you because you refuse to work Sundays. “Harassment” is when you find printouts of aborted fetuses, with the words “you love them so much here are some more for you” scrawled across them, stuffed through your locker vents because you said something against abortion in class.

The reason you may feel that Christians are more persecuted than Wiccans or atheists is because Christians feel a much stronger urge to proselytize than Wiccans or atheists. Most Wiccans don’t go around spreading the Gospel of the Goddess. They don’t wear lapel pins with Goddess logos, they don’t have bumper stickers that say “HONK IF YOU LOVE THE GODDESS”, they don’t walk up to total strangers and ask them, “Do you have a personal relationship with the Goddess?” But Christians do tend to get “in your face” more than other religions, so people respond to this approach with rudeness. And so you end up feeling persecuted.

And am I correct in assuming that, like me, you have a pastor who occasionally preaches on the subject of the persecution of the Early Church, and who invariably says something like, “Ah, now, what we need today is some persecution! Back then, it was persecution that brought the Early Church together, made them stronger! Today we here in America have it soft. We can worship where and how we please–we don’t know how good we have it. And what do we have? We have declining church membership. Folks are getting lazy. They need to get back to basics! The best thing in the world for us would be some persecution!”

Ring a bell? :wink:

But you know, there’s nothing in the Bible that says we have to be persecuted. There’s nothing that says it’s wrong to live in a soft country that allows us to worship where and how we please. But sometimes people start feeling guilty about how easy we have it, so they manufacture some feelings of persecution, just so they can identify with the Early Church.

Let me know if I’m getting warm. :smiley:

And P.S. What Cervaise said. :wink:

Tomndebb said:

How could you ever think such a thing?!

I seem to recall that we had a similar discussion with an earlier version of the local SDMB Fundy. Was it ARG? Whoever it was talked about how he couldn’t understand why people reacted poorly to him and stuff like that. Hmmm…

Does that mean that you admit you were wrong?

After all, you said that between an atheist, a Wiccan, and a Christian, of course “in this day and age” the Christian would be most likely to be harmed by being too open about his religious beliefs.

Satan and I pointed out some extreme cases of persecution experienced by Wiccans (and in some cases merely
“suspected Wiccans”) and atheists, and the best you can do is these cites from the ACLJ?

So, do you admit that you can’t find anything matching the persecution of the atheist in Satan’s example? Do you admit that Wiccans and atheists have it worse in America, or can you provide a quote from a recent President saying that FC’s should be stripped of their rights?

Incidentally, who better than the ACLJ to understand persecution? After all, the ACLJ is run by Pat Robertson, who tends to say things like this:

(talking about apartheid South Africa) “I think ‘one man, one vote,’ just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights.”–Pat Robertson, “The 700 Club,” 3/18/92
or how about this?

“When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. What do you mean?' the media challenged me. You’re not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?’ My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.’” --from Pat Robertson’s “The New World Order,” page 218.

(taken from http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7027/quotes.html)

So tell me, FoG: is Pat Robertson a real Christian?

-Ben

Hear, hear. To get back to my earlier argument about “fundie porn,” it’s pretty obvious what role this sort of persecution fantasy plays for FC’s in this context. How many times have we had a FC on this board act like a total jerk, and, when called on it, start screaming about anti-Christian bias? I mean, it’s an unending refrain from what- at least 75% of the FC’s that come through here? By using this fantasy, FCs can be bad, and then, when people get angry at them, they can pretend that people are really angry because they’re so good. After all, the Bible says they will be persecuted for being good Christians.

This sort of fundie porn fantasy was very big among the Campus Crusade for Christ at my college. Their behavior was quite obnoxious- I remember that you couldn’t do your laundry without them surrounding you and harassing you about the Bible, and if you asked them to leave, they still wouldn’t quit. Once some of them harassed a friend of mine at some length, and concluded with, “You’re only mad because deep in your heart you know we’re right!” Uh, no, he’s mad because you guys are a bunch of you-know-whats.

For that matter, think of the Republican defense of Ashcroft. Clearly anyone who perjures himself so blatantly (with regard to his interview with that pro-slavery rag) isn’t fit to be attorney general. And if he’s so opposed to abortion that he thinks birth control pills should be illegal, then he’s not fit to protect the right to abortion and more than I’m fit to run a factory for turning Jews into soap. So how do the Republicans defend him? The same old hymn: “you just don’t like Christians.”

-Ben

The ironic thing is that people like this (and, for that matter, people like FoG) do way, way more to destroy Christianity than the Humanist Manifesto ever could. As was pointed out before, it’s not TV that makes Christians look “a little bit nuts.” It’s the Christians who talk about Muslims worshipping cows and Buddha. (Not to mention the fact that FoG thinks the Psychic Friends Network employs real psychics…)

-Ben

Hey folks,

No time for a detailed response to all these posts tonite, but I have read them all and find them interesting. I should be able to give a detailed response in the next few days.

Having said that, I would like to comment on the “who would get persecuted/harassed more in this day and age” question.

When DoctorJ posed the question to me, I pretty much responded from within my own little corner of the world. I’ve never met a Wiccan, and I’ve only known a few atheists in my day. Of the few I’ve known, I’ve never seen any of my Christian friends persecute them at all, and neither have I.

I am finding this thread (and the other, hijacked, “movie” thread) interesting. I’m finding that atheists and Wiccans feel much the same way Christians feel today, a harassed minority. I didn’t really realize that my response to Dr J’s question would be taken so strongly as “Christians are persecuted MORE than you are!” That wasn’t my intent, but I can surely see how it was seen that way.

This is kind of along the lines of looking at life through the eyes and emotions of a minority race. Being a white male, I grew up very naive to the race problem in America. I thought we could all just be colorblind and look at people as people and not judge based on color. Now I see that blacks face very subtle discrimination on an almost daily basis. (Side note: if you’re white, and want to see life through a black man’s perspective, read the fiction book “Dominion” by Randy Alcorn. It will totally change your perspective on how blacks see things in America.)

So my point is this: I am somewhat seeing the point you guys are making, that atheists and Wiccans go through harassment and hatred, many times at the hands of those who claim to be Christians. I would bet that you could throw gays into this category as well. I’m sure one of the main reason they feel uncomfortable in the church is because of so called “Christians” attacking them with a Bible. People full of hate can take the Bible and twist it into something that justifies their hate, if they want to.

I’ll have more comments later in the week when I get a chance.

You said it! Hatred has no place in Christianity.

“Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God, and anyone who loveth is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”-1 John 4:7,8

I’m just sick of all of these hate-filled “Christians” giving the rest of us a bad name.

I guess (atheists/gays/whoever else traditionaly gets a bad name) feel the same way.

OK, Ben, I was with you all the way up to here, but now you’re just talking crazy talk! Next thing I know, you’ll be telling me that that John Edward guy on the Sci Fi Channel really can’t talk to dead folks!

Hahahaha, right.

OK, or not. :smiley:

Gak. I guess I have to get a little involved in this.

I had a simular work situation to FoG’s. I was hired (part time) at a store, and made it VERY clear from the git-go that I cound NOT work Sundays. Ever. Since it was part time, most people had days or times they could not work, because of classes, another job, or whatever. No biggie. So my “unavailable” day was Sunday. No problem.

After a few years (and a few different bosses) no problem keeping my Sundays off. Until this new boss came along. She pestered me and pestered me about it. I told her that I was hired with that understanding, and what I was doing on Sunday was not really the issue. She and her flunkies made fun of me, were insulting, and there was the term “religious fanatic” used at one time. This boss often said that she could understand if I had the day off for a class, or kids, but she didn’t see why I needed to have EVERY Sunday off for CHURCH. My “reasons” for wanting to keep that day off weren’t “good enough” for her.

Eventually she gave me an ulimatum, I had to work Sunday. So I quit on the spot. It just pissed me off so royally. WHAT I was doing on my day off was none of her frigging business!!! (It still pisses me off to this day - can you tell?) I don’t consider it wrong to not be hired because you can’t work a certain day. But when they hire you with the understanding that you can’t work certain days, and it’s OK for several YEARS, there is NO excuse to suddenly try to force a worker to work that day anyway.

Do I feel “persecuted” because of what she did? Well, I am not sure what I’d call it. Do I feel that she treated me the way she did because I had the day off to go to CHURCH (as opposed to having a college course, or kids at home) and she thought that I had no business having a day off for CHURCH? Obviously! She couldn’t have made that clearer to me. I think the motivations behind her behavior had an anti-Christian element.

I guess that’s all I have to add. No one will convince me that this was just a matter of the boss trying to throw her weight around, just being a pushy bitch on general principles. It was because it involved CHURCH. It just stuck in her craw that I got that day off for CHURCH. She made it clear - had I needed Sunday off for a class, she wouldn’t have bothered me about it.

So I guess I am saying, I don’t think it is implausable that FoG’s boss had anti-Christian motivations behind his behavior. More than being just a generic “jerk” or asshole. I think that some people do behave in this way towards Christians, (even though it probably doesn’t happen a lot) and there is no excuse for it when it happens. (Anymore than when a hypocrite Christians treats a non-Christian in a simular manner.)

I can see why we saw it that way, too, since that’s exactly what you said:

Not only are you claiming that a Christian is more likely to be attacked for his beliefs, you can’t believe that anyone would think otherwise.

To extend your analogy to race (always a dangerous exercise, but what the hey), imagine how a black person would feel if someone said, “Are you serious? I mean, there are exceptions, but do you really think in this day and age that a black man is going to have trouble because of his race more than a white person?”

I’m somewhat seeing the point that the Pope may, in fact, be Catholic.

I would bet that you could also make an argument that bears may, in fact, poop in the woods. :slight_smile:

FoG, I didn’t start this thread or join the other thread to attack you. I admire the fact that you hang around here–I like to think that you’re not just another drive-by Fundie here to save the heathens, but that you’d actually like to learn something yourself. The main reason Christianity frustrates many of us sometimes is that some Christians have a really skewed, Jack Chick-esque view of what it’s like to be a non-Christian in this society. You’re not doing yourself or your faith any favors by holding on to or perpetuating those views.

yosemitebabe–I don’t think anyone was denying that FoG’s boss (or yours) has an anti-Christian bias. What we’re arguing is that isolated anti-Christian jerks are not evidence of a general societal bias against Christians. The poll stating that half the country would not vote for an atheist for President, on the other hand, says quite a bit.

Dr. J

Ben asked:

I wish I could answer, but there have been so many that I’ve lost count and my calculator burned out in trying to add 'em all up.

Regarding the link FriendofGod provided, I think it’s despicable that a nurse would tell a gay couple, one of whom is dying of AIDS, that they’re sinners according to her religion. Nurses are supposed to provide comfort and acceptance; under no circumstance should a nurse ever, ever tell a patient such a thing. Whether her actions were illegal or not, what she did was stupid, unethical, and wrong.

As an atheist living in the Bible Belt, FriendofGod, I can testify that I am so afraid that people will harm my children or burn down my house that I must keep my beliefs secret. Many times, patients have asked me which church I go to, what religion I am, etc. I can’t lie, but I can’t tell them the truth because they would not let me take care of them again.

I have been attacked and ostracized when I expressed the opinion that I don’t think homosexuality is a heinous sin, and that I’m not a young-earth creationist. What would people do to me if they knew I didn’t believe in God at all? I’m afraid to find out.

Often, patients have told me things like this: “You’re so kind and caring; I can tell you’re a good Christian girl. Today, so many people don’t even believe in God, and this country is just falling apart. Everything started to go bad when they took God out of the schools. I’m so lucky to have such a good Christian nurse taking care of me.”

I’d love to respond to that by telling them that no, I’m a good atheist girl, but that’s not an option.

HOWEVER…

… in both these cases, there is another probable scenario: that the referred bosses had going on a broader anti-RELIGIOUS motivation, that manifested as “anti Christian” because, well, that’s who were around.

jrd

Anybody object to this definition?

Christian-Anyone who uses the Bible(old and new Testaments) as the basis of a belief system, AND calls her/himself a “Christian”.

Notice that I didn’t use the phrase “…properly uses…”. All of the sects of Christianity can point to verses that support their beliefs and point to verses that show that all the other sects are going to Hell. Friend of God(or anyone else, for that matter) does not have the authority to use the phrase “so-called Christians” unless he can present a letter signed by God On High stating such.

Of course, the answer of “I DO have such a letter-it’s called the Bible!” is expected. Funny thing is, all the other sects are showing me the same letter, with the same heading: Dear Occupant:

FoG:

I only see three reasonable explanations for your continued assertion that Chrisitians in the United States of America are a persecuted minority:

(1) You do not count all Christians as Christians.

(2) You are completely illiterate and thus unable to read that Christians in this land are neither persecuted nor a minority.

or

(3) You are intentionally, now, telling a lie.

which is it?

probably because you operate in circles they prefer to avoid

Look at the name of the thread please…

Since when are christians in the US a minority? Harassed? IMO many Christians feel comfortable crying foul because they know that the majority of people in a given place and time will be at least sympathetic to their beliefs.

I have a friend who is studying to be a minister, we have discussed things like this and I think we both enjoy the debate. He has admitted to me that there is tons of religious discrimination within church circles but that it is less obvious to the outside world. Things like posting job openings at church or circulating the word of those opportunities through church meetings. He even admitted that if he owned a business he would tend to hire people from his church before someone else not just because of their shared beliefs but because his “committment” to those beliefs would be questioned if he hired “outside.”

“You hired who? What was wrong with Joey? He applied didnt he? Hes such a nice boy. Why didnt you give him the chance? He really wanted to work with you. We have known him for all these years how could you not want him?”

This could go on for hours

Yup and most of the time we never get the chance to see it for the reasons stated above. A christian business owner it would seem has two choices, have his church turn against him or our court system turning against him. At least in court he a chance.

Um, hello? You have TOO “met” a Wiccan, FoG, or don’t I count? :rolleyes:

And to back up something DoctorJ said SOMEWHERE (these threads have all blended together…), if you wanna talk being harassed, look at the old LB board. What happened to Catholics and nonbelievers there was MUCH worse than ANYTHING I have seen Christians complain of.

And heck, FoG…how would you like it if you were told repeatedly that you were going to hell? Or that your soul was in danger? Or that if you had just “believed more,” maybe you wouldn’t have been abused? I have been told ALL of those things over on the Pizza Parlor. REPEATEDLY. Becuase of my faith.

THAT is harassment.

Harrassment against Christians certainly does occur occasionally, and your story does sound like an example. However, the fact that something occasionally happens does not establish that it is not implausible, and it definitely doesn’t mean that it actually happened in any situation in which it is claimed to happen. I do find the idea that FoG was discriminated against because of his religion to be implausible. That doesn’t mean that I am convinced that he wasn’t discriminated against, but it does mean that I expect more that “I am a Christian who was harassed” before I conclude that he was harassed because he is Christian. As an example of one case of discrimination against Christians, your story is compelling. As evidence that FoG was harassed for his religion, it is seriously lacking.

FoG, you can talk the talk about how Christians should speak out about bigotry, but can you walk the walk? When will you condemn the bigotry of Pat Robertson?

-Ben

I think I understand where you are coming from here - my story gave details that directly pointed to religious harassment because I wanted a day off to go to church, and my boss didn’t want to honor that, even though I was hired with Sundays off. FoG’s story was less detailed than mine, so I think the jury’s still out on the motivations of this particular boss. I guess I “filled in the blanks” a little, because I had encountered (on the surface) an almost indentical thing in my workplace.

So, I guess FoG needs to provide more details. Did the boss pester and annoy everyone about working overtime with equal enthusiasm? Did the boss pick and choose which employees’ “reasons” for not working late were acceptable, and imply that FoG’s “reasons” weren’t good enough? FoG does state that the boss and other employees were downright “hateful” about his religion - how did this “hateful” behavior manifest itself? I was called a “religious fanatic” - what terms were used towards FoG?

I don’t know if FoG’s boss was just being a jerk in a generic way, or specifically getting a kick out of trying to stick it to FoG because of his religion. I think we need more details. I can totally believe that it could be religious harrassment, however, because if what happened to me.

I also have to add another aside - there have been a few times when atheist friends and acquaintences came off like they didn’t think that harassment against Christians ever happened, or when they did, it “wasn’t the same” or “wasn’t as bad” somehow. I understand that atheists and other non-Christians have endured FAR more crap for their beliefs than I ever have for my Christianity. But occasionally, I will witness or experience some inappropriate treatment, or downright unkind treatment because of my faith. It’s rare, but it happens. And when it does, I don’t want it blown off. I don’t want to be told “Now you know how it feels!” (as if I ever behaved that way towards anyone - God Forbid!) I don’t want my complaints or feelings discounted or dismissed, just because I’m in the “majority”. Unfairness is unfairness, no matter who it is directed at.

I am not accusing anyone here of blowing off legitimate complaints (no one has tried to imply that what happened to me “wasn’t the same”). However, I just had to get that little gripe off my chest, and this seemed the right time.