Christians--the persecuted majority

Great Debates
61

y-babe replied to The Ryan: *That doesn’t mean that I am convinced that he wasn’t discriminated against, but it does mean that I expect more that “I am a Christian who was harassed” before I conclude that he was harassed because he is Christian.

I think I understand where you are coming from here - my story gave details that directly pointed to religious harassment because I wanted a day off to go to church, and my boss didn’t want to honor that, even though I was hired with Sundays off. FoG’s story was less detailed than mine, so I think the jury’s still out on the motivations of this particular boss. *

While I definitely sympathize with both FoG and y-babe in their experiences of being harassed by their bosses about wanting regular time off for church, I’d like to point out that not only does it not demonstrate that their bosses were anti-Christian (as opposed to being, say, scornful of religion in general), it doesn’t even demonstrate that their bosses were **non-**Christian. That is, there are plenty of people who identify as Christians, believe in the divinity of Jesus and his redemption of mankind, celebrate Christmas, etc. etc. etc., who would still get all snippy and hostile at a fellow Christian who was a regular churchgoer. Why, I’m not exactly sure, but some of them seem to have bad associations with churchgoing Christians as being rigid, intolerant, self-righteous, extremist in their views, etc.: that is, kind of Pharisaical in their commitment to following the rules rather than heeding God’s real message.

Now I hasten to add that I know tons of churchgoing Christians and do not agree that they can be characterized by this prejudiced view. But there are still a lot of non-churchgoing Christians who hold it, and as things stand, I don’t believe we actually know yet that the two bosses in question might not fall into this category. This, of course, would change the whole issue of “anti-Christian” bias into one of intrafaith squabbling. Of course, if FoG and/or y-babe can assure us that his/her annoying boss did not in fact self-identify as any kind of Christian, there goes that alternative explanation.

62

Then you haven’t been in the parking lot of the Horizon Unitarian Universalist Church in Carrollton, Texas. :slight_smile:

63

when was the last time an atheist tackeled you while walking down the street and told you to give up God?

the tenants renting my 1st flr apartment have been inviting me to church. the last time i told them i had already paid cash to go to hell. it’s been 2 months, maybe they’ll leave me alone or i’ll have to kick them out. LOL!

Dal Timgar

64

Not having read the entire thread (I know, I know, bad me), I will post one thing I noticed today. It was blatant discrimination, but not anti-Christian.

Stickers.

I know, what a silly little thing, right? But there in the supermarket was a fairly large selection of stickers - you know, for kids, for teachers to use while grading papers, that sort of thing. So they had cartoon characters, “Great job!” motivational ones, all sorts of things - including several sets of Christian-oriented ones. “WWJD?”, “God loves you,” etc.

So, yes, very Christian-positive. But it also makes a huge assumption, one that, as I’m sure many have already pointed out, that the default setting for an American is to be Christian. Sorely lacking in this sticker display were “The Koran is Kool!” or “Jews Rules!” or “Great job, you God-hating Luddite!” (I would throw in a lack of lesbigay stickers, but I’ve seen them prominently displayed elsewhere. :wink: )

This goes for buttons and bumper stickers, too. The only place us heathens have made inroads would be the Darwin fish, but the number of icthus I’ve seen far, far outnumber the Darwins I’ve seen.

And let’s not even talk about the pro-choice/pro-abortion bumper sticker war…

Esprix

65

I feel the need to point out; Western culture is steeped in the Christianity mythos. If I mention The Flood, The Serpent, Jonah and the whale, Jericho, The Sermon on the Mount, Wandering in the desert for 40 years everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) knows exactly what I’m referring to.

But how many people know these mythological tidbits from Western culture as well: Name the 4 Tribes from The Book of Invasions; how did Lugh get into the Feast; which direction does Jutenheim lay; who invented the flute and why was it thrown away?

To claim that society is discriminating against Christians yet at the same time, any child of 7 could answer most of those questions, it borders on the plain silly. Granted, prehaps TV doesn’t portray Christians the way Foggie would like, but calling that discrimiation is outlandish.

66

I don’t think anyone is suggesting (or at least I hope not) that some of the examples given above are anti-Christian discrimination. (Not getting the version of the Bible that you like represented, or what not.)

I am talking about blatantly obnoxious or harrassing behavior. It happens to atheists or non-Christians a lot, (A LOT) and that totally sucks. It is appalling.

However, it does happen to Christians who are minding their own business. Not a lot, it’s probably pretty rare, but it happens. And unless a Christian is so aggressive and obnoxious first, they don’t “deserve it” when it does.

In the example of my boss - I am not 100% sure if she was an atheist, (she was too “politically correct” to discuss religion at all in the workplace) but she was obviously behaving in an innappropriate manner towards me. I stress again - in my situation, it was not as if I was huffing and puffing because I suddenly decided that I wanted to have Sundays off and they wouldn’t let me. I was always pretty low-key about religion at work. It was just that I was HIRED with the understanding that I was “unavailable” Sundays. The reasons for me being “unavailable” were never the issue with me, and were no one’s busines. I just expected that my Sundays off should be honored, since I never would have taken the job had I known that I could be pressured later for working a day that I had made clear was “unavailable” from the beginning. The boss made the church thing her big issue, and ran with it.

There are all sorts of inequities and unfair things that happen in this world. Christianity appears to be the “default” in America, and it may really irk you, and irritate you if you’re not Christian. And yes, Christians sometimes can be little tyrants, and behave in appalling ways. This appalls me too, and pisses me off. But that still is no excuse for harrassing or hateful behavior towards Christians (not that anyone is making excuses - or at least I hope not!)

Like I mentioned before, I have encountered the attitude from atheists “It’s not the same” or, “Now you know how it feels!” when a Christian (or Christianity) is dumped on. (Rare, but it does happen.) This does no good. It makes the more liberal-minded Christians feel dumped on too, and they’ll feel less inclined to be supportive of their atheist brethren. They’ll think - “Screw this! I haven’t done anything to deserve this! Why do I ‘deserve’ to be dumped on, or insulted? And why do my atheist friends, who know I have never behaved in this way, act as if I somehow ‘have it coming’ anyway?” I went through a whole knock-down-drag-out about this topic on another message board a while back. I was told that I should just “suck it up” and take any anti-Christian backlash that comes my way. BULLSHIT. I won’t take crap. I WON’T take crap. I didn’t prompt it, I didn’t ask for it, and I won’t take it. Simple as that.

(OK, I guess I still had a little bit I had to get off my chest! :wink: )

67

I think I’ve figured out FoG’s reasoning.
He truly believes that he’s living in the End Times. He’s been taught from infancy that all the signs are being fulfilled RIGHT NOW, and that his generation is the one that’s going to get called up. Of course, his father was told the same thing, as was his father, ad infinitum.
They’ve been using the same verses for close to two thousand years to “prove” that Jesus is coming any day now.

Now, one of FoG’s beliefs is that, in the End Times, Christians are gonna be persecuted more than ever. Since these are the End Times, Christians must be being persecuted! If the Christians aren’t being persecuted, then FoG isn’t a “special” Gonna Get Lifted Into Heaven In Front Of All You Heathens Christian.

68

And, don’t forget, if he can’t provide evidence to back those assertions, well that’s because it’s all being done behind the scenes by Satan.

69

Does “turn the other cheek” ring any bells?

70

y-babe, I completely agree with you. Atheists “reverse bashing” Christians is kind of like feminists “reverse bashing” men, IMO—the minor (if any) positive effect that may result from “shaking up” the usual situation and switching the roles is outweighed by the negative effects of generating more bigotry and unfairness.

One question: if you got exasperated enough during this whole intolerable situation to think about legal redress, did you happen to call your local ACLU affiliate? Your case sounds like a classic example of religious civil liberties violation (though the harassment may have been too vague in nature to find discrimination), and I’d be curious to know what they said.

71

ESPRIX –

[quotge]Not having read the entire thread (I know, I know, bad me), I will post one thing I noticed today. It was blatant discrimination, but not anti-Christian. . . . Stickers.
[/quotes]

Stickers? Stickers? You consider the proliferation of Christianity-friendly stickers, and the dearth of Wiccan/Islamic/Buddhist/whatever stickers to be “blatant discrimination”? Come on.

Oohkay. Let’s assume, just 'cause it makes sense, that the supermarket sells stuff that people actually buy (ie, that there’s a market for), and doesn’t sell things that people do not buy – or at least do not buy in sufficient quantity to justify the supermarket carrying them.

What? What is a social “default setting”? Unquestionably, and as pointed out above, the religious ethos of the majority of the Amercian population is Christian. This is an unavoidable side-effect of a population that, to the extent it claims a religious affiliation at all, is overwhelmingly Christian. Again, this has zero to do with a sticker display that sells (surprise!) stickers that people have indicated they might be willing to buy, which in turn includes (surprise!) Christianity-oriented stickers, because the majority of customers are (surprise!)likely to be Christian, if they admit to being anything at all.

Could it be that those stickers are supressed due to blatant discrimination??? Or could it be that they’re not stocked because there’s no market for them? Which is more likely to motivate Safeway/A&P/Piggly-Wiggly/Ralph’s? The desire to discriminate against other religions or the economic bottom-line of profitability?

This, to mean, indicates a greater willingness on the part of Christians to reduce their beliefs to overly-facile symbols of cutesiness. The fact that other religions have not jumped on the bandwagon of declaring their beliefs through buttons, bumper-stickers, and stickers is hardly something to deplore.

But here’s the thing: They sell WWJD bracelets and T-shirts and bumperstickers because people will buy them; it has nothing to do with desiring to discriminate against others and everything to do with that great American motivator: profit.

So I’ll make you a deal: I won’t pretend to be put-upon and discriminated against as a Christian in a predominately Christian society – which I manifestly am not – if you don’t see discrimination everywhere, even where it manifestly does not exist.

72

Yeah, I flinched too when I saw Esprix use the word “discrimination” to describe the fact that the supermarket sells Christian motivational stickers but no Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/pagan motivational stickers. I hoped you wouldn’t see that. :slight_smile:

But since you did…can we maybe all agree that Esprix accidentally said “discrimination” when he meant to say “cultural bias”, and leave it at that?

73

Jodi said:

Much as it pains me to do so :wink: , I have to agree with Jodi on this one.

Some stores around here will be selling Passover-related items in the next few weeks. Others will not. Does this mean the latter are anti-Semitic? No. It means they do not think there is enough of a market. And where I live, they are right. The Jewish market here is fairly small and may concentrate on shopping in specific stores (for example, one store participated in a fund raiser for a local Temple, so you can expect that more Jews might patronize them). Taking it further, I wouldn’t expect an East-side grocery store to stock Passover items when most of the Jews live on the West side of town.

Similarly, if you live in a country where a large percentage of people are Christian, you’re going to see a lot of Christian items aimed at them. How many “lesbigay” bumper stickers do you, Esprix, think the local Jewel Food Mart would sell? Maybe there’s a reason you only see them in specific locations – because that is where people will buy them. I bet you don’t see too many WWJD? stickers in your local gay bookstore.

OK, I think I’ve probably overexplained this one (especially since Jodi already went over this ground once). :slight_smile:

74

Thank you, Kimstu, for that well-thought-out clarification. My poor choice of wording is a bad reflection on my secretarial skills. Certainly “cultural bias” is more appropos in this particular instance than “discrimination,” so let’s go with that instead.

So, Jodi, I’ll agree not to see discrimination everywhere (which I manifestly do not) if you’ll stop flying off the handle at poor word choices. :rolleyes:

(And y’all say I’ve been cranky? Sheesh!)

Esprix

75

KIMSTU, DAVID B., ESPRIX –

Okay, maybe I jumped like a frog on hot stove when I say 'spree’s post, but IMO “discrimination” is a word that gets bandied about without a lot of thought around here, and that bugs the frog-poop out of me.

KIMSTU –

Sure we can, since ESPRIX apparently agrees with this, but “blatant discrimination” does not equal “cultural bias,” and we all know it. Anyway, the situation he cites isn’t even an example of intentional cultural bias; it’s just supply and demand. I can’t get a kosher hotdog out here to save my life (and I wish I could, since Lord knows what goes in non-kosher dogs). That doesn’t mean there’s a “cultural bias” against Jewish people; it means there aren’t enough people around here eating kosher (or willing to pay for kosher) to justify stocking kosher items. That’s all.

I promise to try, since I fully realize that misuse of this particular word (discrimination) is rapidly becoming a hot-button with me – especially since I see it misused so much around here. And I admit I found your misuse of it especially provoking (stickers?!), so I do appreciate your clarification.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to rapidly put my affairs in order. DAVID B. has agreed with me, and if that’s not a sign of the apocalypse I don’t know what is. :wink:

76

Hey, Jopdi!

To help fill you in, Foggie made the claim (in this thread thread that there is a strong anti-Christian bias in our society, especially over the past 30 years. When asked to back this claim up, he’s hemmed and hawed about it.

DoctorJ created this thread to talk specifically about that topic, the persecution of Christians in our society.

77

That’s it in a nutshell. Golly, you Dopers are sure smart! It took pages to get this concept across on that other message board!

I was pissed off, but it never occurred to me to take legal steps. For one thing, it was a terrible little job that wasn’t worth keeping (all my friends cheered when I quit.) Secondly, I knew I was moving out-of-state shortly - so there seemed no point. Lastly, it turns out that the boss was fired like a month later. Probably not directly related to my situation, but maybe not totally unrelated. When I quit, I REALLY shook her up, and all her minions. I don’t think they expected that, or thought that I would be as pissed off as I was. When I signed the papers (whatever they are called) for resigning, the boss filled out that my reason for quitting was that I was “moving”. I didn’t change that - I really should have. But I just wanted it over, and I was all in a flurry with moving preparations. Looking back, I should have made a stink. But then again, the boss lost her job anyway…

78

Moron.

79

I’m sure you had some perfectly cogent contribution to the discussion that you had typed out. Unfortunately, you computer seems to have eaten it, leaving only your sig.

80

Jodi: Anyway, the situation he cites isn’t even an example of intentional cultural bias; it’s just supply and demand. I can’t get a kosher hotdog out here to save my life (and I wish I could, since Lord knows what goes in non-kosher dogs). That doesn’t mean there’s a “cultural bias” against Jewish people […]

More interesting shades of meaning: actually, I tend to think of the expression “cultural bias” as implying something unintentional, a, well, a bias that’s like, built into the culture, you know. Not a prejudice per se, just a certain “that’s the way things are” tilt. That’s why I suggested it as a substitute for the clearly inappropriate “discrimination”, which to my mind does imply intention.