Okay, so someone who is an established “asshole boss” on all accounts is suddenly totally truthful in his or her statements? Are you saying (s)he was an asshole, but trustworthy as well? I have had asshole bosses before, and I wouldn’t have trusted them as far as I could have thrown them. Any of them. No matter what particular specific brand of “assholism” they were inflicted with.
Is this a new strain of “asshole boss” who is somehow honest?
Oh, and don’t bosses “pass judgment on what is and isn’t a good reason to not be available to work” all of the time? That’s part of their job. Some very reasonable people have told me that they wouldn’t hire me because I wanted Sunday’s off for the NFL. If I said church, it might have been different, but who knows? They might have also thought things were different if I said that every other Sunday I had custody of my kids and needed those weekends free. Either way, any time off from availability or a normal work schedule is discriminatory by nature as far as whether it’s accepted or not.
Also, in your self-defense, you make it sound LESS important that something might be wrong with your children than going to church. I doubt that is the case, and in fact most religions say that God has an out-clause on that as well, so you might want to amend this.
I also do suggest that you start your new thread, yosemitebabe, because while you claimed that you knew that asshole boss =/= persecution, you are still posting about your asshole boss in a thread with persecution right in the subject line, which makes me wonder.
Employees with kids didn’t get the same kind of flack I did about days off. Employees with classes didn’t get the flack about days off. Her actions and words both. It is what happened. OK?
Sigh. Yes, they do. But as I have repeated many times, I was hired with the understanding that I DID NOT WORK SUNDAYS. OK? How many times do I have to repeat this? Is it “part of the boss’s job” to not honor the stipulations that were made and agreed upon when an employee was hired? Is it part of a boss’s job to backslide and not honor this? If I had been hired to a job where I knew I would have to work Sundays, when I knew I did not want to work Sundays, and then bitched about it later, that would be one thing. But that’s not what happened. I took the job with Sundays off. Did I mention it was a part time job? Everyone had days they could not work. Their reasons varied. But they ALL had days and times they couldn’t work! And either the boss hired them with these “unavailable” days settled, or not. But it is not right to hire some one who is “not available” at certain times, and then after the fact expect them to work those times anyway. What part of this don’t you agree with?
So did you work for them, or not? You’d be a fool to take a job with someone who wanted you to work a day you couldn’t/wouldn’t work. These are the things that are settled before you are hired. Right? That’s what I did. I settled it before I was hired, and was led to believe that I had SUNDAYS OFF. Or so I thought…
Let’s say you took a job with someone who said “OK, Sundays off”, you take the job with the expectations and clear understanding that you get Sundays off, and later on the bosses say “Uh! Sorry! No Sundays off after all! Your reasons aren’t good enough!” Would that be just “part of their job” to do that to you?
I am sorry, I am lost. What the hell do you mean???
This subject wouldn’t have come up so much if people would stop asking questions and making assumptions that I have already commented on earlier in this thread. I’ve had to repeat myself many times on this whole tale. It’s almost as if a few of you are highly motivated to find any reason to NOT to accept that my boss did what she did because of anti-religious feelings. (As opposed to just because she’s a jerk to everyone, for any reason she can come up with.) No, what happened to me was not organized persecution or discrimination. But it was anti-religiously motivated, discrimination, and, according to some, one-on-one “persecution”. And it was brought up by me in the first place because FoG had something simular happen to him.
For real. Satan, Yosemitebabe’s got your number. She didn’t introduce her case as an example of the persecution mentioned in the OP. It was a reaction to FoG’s story of a similar situation. She’s been totally levelheaded about the whole thing. She is not trying to apply it to every case. She just relayed what happened to her. You’re being a lot more adversarial than you need to be. She means exactly what she has said and implies nothing more.
So lighten up a little, and let’s all be friends, 'K?
May I make an honest suggestion? Give up trying to convince Satan. You could lay out the plainest case in the world (which, actually, you’ve already done) and it wouldn’t matter. He will find something in your words to twist, because he does not like your conclusion. I have finally come to the realization that there are a few posters on here who could care less about the truth. They just want to keep the debate rolling, and if twisting someone’s words accomplishes that, they will do it. Thankfully, most people on here want an honest debate.
Well I’ve been trying to catch up in the now-awkwardly named ‘movie’ thread so much I almost forgot this one. But I’m up ridiculously late and wide awake, so I’ll try to give this one equal time.
tygerbright said:
First of all, welcome! Second, I agree. As I said in my first post in this thread, no Christian in the USA undergoes true “persection”. It’s more like harassment, ridicule, etc … not pleasant things, but not persecution.
VERY TRUE POINT actually! It’s soooo easy to be lazy and complacent when you can express your faith freely.
As for my Malaysian friend whose parents disowned her, Satan said:
Actually, you’re right. Good point. Again, more like ‘harassment’. Now that I think about it, I don’t know anyone personally that has ever been through actual persecution. I’ve only read about it regarding the church in China, et al…
That’s a completely different situation. First, do you know for sure you didn’t get the job because you couldn’t work Sundays? And even if it was the reason, that’s a different situation. If the requirement of the job is that you work at a time you can’t work, that’s understandable if you don’t get the job. But that wasn’t the case in my situation at all.
Interestingly, these types of situations are one of many reasons why many churches are holding services at non traditional times. My former church in Atlanta now has 7 alternate services you can attend: Friday night at 7, Saturday nights at 5 or 7, Sunday mornings at 8 or 10, and Sunday nights at 5 or 7. Same sermon at each. Most popular times are Friday night at 7 and Sunday AM at 10.
Again, I never called it ‘persecution’ per se, but it was clearly harassment and expressing an anti-Christian sentiment toward me. And believe me it was not just because she was a jerk (although she was). She singledmeout. In fact, every one of my coworkers noticed it and pointed it out to me. I remember a new girl who had been working with us less than a week asking me, “Why on earth does she love to pick on you so much?”
I should have mentioned this before…it wasnt just the Wed PM thing, she harassed me in general too. I remember one time she just outright yelled at me in front of the whole office. I went to her privately and called her on the carpet for it, honestly not really caring if she fired me (I was not going to take it from her, regardless of what she did). People like this, I’ve found, are nothing but big bullies that are used to intimidating people and getting away with it. Sometimes if you call them on the carpet, surprisingly, they will back down. This one did, sort of, although she’d never admit it.
Anyway, there were times we talked about issues … which by the way were discussion she initiated. Had I known early on how it would be used against me, I might not have answered her questions. But she asked me about political and religious views and we discussed all kinds of things a time or two. She was quite passionate in her disagreement with me on just about everything.
So anyway, hopefully that gives a more full picture of the situation.
So, in your definition of ‘persecution’, it has to be pretty widespread. I can actually see your point. In fact, it’s true. I can’t think of any season of genuine persecution in church history that wasn’t very widespread.
I don’t know of any, but that’s not what I said. I said:
You tried turning it into commentary on my accuracy, but I’m not talking about that. I mean toward Christianity in general. As one small example here’s a quote from jenkinsfan’s gospel summary thread:
Having said that, there is the same aimed at Christians as well, such as myself, jenkinsfan and others. I’ve seen some nasty stuff! Case in point, from the same thread:
Oops! Those are your words Satan ;).
Hey, out of curiosity, since I was (justifiably) called on the carpet by Gaudere in the movie thread for calling DB an idiot, will Satan get in trouble for calling jenkinsfan a stupid parrot? Or perhaps for this line from page 1 of this thread:
Onward. Satan continues…
[Quote]
So what is your definition of a Christian? Someone who lives up to YOUR standards or Gods?
[Quote]
Answer:
I said:
You responded:
I’ve met dozens of people who believed this way, mostly during my college years. Believe me, not everyone who goes to church is a believer in Christ.
I continued:
You replied:
???
I’m sorry but I’m laughing! What does any thing I just quoted have to do with Catholicism???
???
And you want this … why? This has not even been a topic of this thread. If you really want it, check throughout church history, esp early in the last millenium, and you’ll find plenty of Christian vs CHristian wars that are scars on church history.
Heh … as usual, a little twisting there Satan. Never called it ‘persecution’, that’s your word. It is an attack on Christian principles for sure. Just because some of you say it’s not doesn’t make it true. I’m not quite sure how you think you provided ‘evidence’ that this was not true! I realize some opinions were thrown around, but that’s different.
LOL! THATS IT!!!
No, as I’ve already stated, the Bible merely confirms what we already experience. Nice theory, but I’m afraid it’s not accurate.
Yup. As I said, scars on church history.
Uh, I’m not asking you to “give” me anything. And I’m certainly not going to “give” you something I have no proof of. Tell you what, China is probably the biggest hotbed of legitimate persecution toward Christians in the world today. If you believe that what you said is true, find out if other religious groups are equally persecuted. Maybe they are! I’m not at all ruling it out, I’ve just not heard of it.
Regarding the court cases I cited, which you predictably tried to argue down one by one, let me point out one thing out at least: I linked to some cases in which a Christian won the case. The point of giving you those links was simply that the harassment occurred in the first place that forced a trial to have to occur.
These are a mere handful of examples. You can find scads more at the ACLJ site. But as I said to yosimitebabe, it doesn’t matter how much evidence I give you, I have the feeling you will find something about it to water it down.
As for the link you provided to the awful story about the atheist who was attacked by Christians … I would like to request what I asked for either in the other thread or this one. I’m not even sure it was you Satan but someone linked to it. Could you provide an independent source for this story? I’m not saying it’s not true, just that this article is by the person it allegedly happened to.
Hmm- I have checked my dictionary, and i can’t seem to think of the right word here. “Ironic”? No, no quite. “Hypocrisy”? Hmm, maybe. Anyone want to help me out here?
Christians are not “persecuted” in this country- they(we) are in the majority so it is hard to be persecuted when you outnumber everyone. However, there are intolerant folks everywhere- and one of the favorite things of bigots to be intolerant over is religion. Certainly, despite JCs constant pleas to be tolerant- there are far too many intolerant Christians. However, intolerance & bigotry is not a monopoly of the majority. There are many folks who are intolerant of ALL religion- and of course the the biggest target here is Christians. Yosemitebabe was clearly targeted for that reason. There are minority religions who have members who are just as “holier than thou” than the biggest baddest fundie in the Ozarks. And they are intolerant of all other faiths: biggest target- Christianity. So- Christians do get their share of intolerance- but hardly persecution. Overall, despite JC’s “Word”- i would say that Christians dish out more intolerance than we take. But that does not excuse or make right ANY bigotry.
Here on the SDMB Christians are in the minority. So- sometimes it does seem like we are “persecuted”. But again, i think not- there is a lot of intolerance for ALL faith here- and Christianity is just the biggest target. Not that intolerance is rampant, or even common; it is not- but it exists, and thus, Christians tend to be the biggest target. Of course, some Sects, such as the Southern Baptists, and other intolerant “Fundies” do deserve a “verbal spanking” now & then, i will admit. I have even helped administer same.
My experience was rather unique. The boss actually kind of liked me, for the most part, because I was reliable and worked other unappealing days and hours. She did not want me to quit - I am convinced that it was not her intent to drive me away. (She was pretty shook up after I quit.) She was not trying to screw me over just because she hated me, or because she was a total flaming b-tch about everything and everyone. She just didn’t think church was a “good enough” reason to honor my Sundays off. She had some sort of thing about that. And I use the words “honor my Sundays off” because I was hired with the understanding that I had the day off. Sigh. I just felt the need to repeat that once again!
But Satan is right about one thing - I should (and I think I will) start a thread about bosses trying to put a guilt trip about your days off. Now, I hasten to add that such a situation is different than what happened with the aforementioned boss. For instance, my current bosses are not attempting to force me to work my weekends, they are making no attempts like that. They’ll just try to manipulate and guilt me into giving up my weekends. They’ll imply that since I am not doing anything “important”, why don’t I give up my weekend? And such a rant should really be its own thread!
So we won’t be hearing anything more about it then?
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Which sucks, and I would have stuck up for you if I’d have been there. However, we are in a thread about persecution, which is, as you already admitted, not the same thing.
**
Yep. Asshole boss.
**
Well, in the history, there was a TON of persecution. Check out what the Church did to Jews throughout history, or are you unaware of the total subjugation of God’s Chosen People at the hands of Christians who said convert, move or die for centuries? And I would say that The Crusades are the definition of persecution here.
But in the here and now? Yeah, different kettle of fish.
**
Right, and as I said, show me how this is true. I want cites. Oh, you have some? Let’s see…
What he was saying was that the Christian God is not one of love. This, while a revelation to you purhaps, is not an uncommon view. Start a thread about it if you don’t want a hijack.
In fact, the poster specifically said, “I’m not meaning to attack jenkinsfan or FoG or anyone like them, just the piece of shit God that they believe in.” This tells me that he was NOT insulting you. Just God.
And you know what? That’s between him and God.
**
Yes, and what of them? I said specifically that one poster was being a stupid parrot. I even said that Christians are quite welcome in a UU church, but parrots weren’t. Parrots come in all creeds, FoGgy one. Your less-Godly friend the fan of the hack scribe happened to be a Christian one.
So, once again, you claim something but the reality is quite different.
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Again, I have yet except in the world of Chick Tracts to see anyone who has ever uttered the wqords “I can sin all I want and God will forgive me.” Ever.
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No, in fact what happened is that people asked you to show evidence for your claims of persecution, your only response was television fare.
That is exactly what helped start this whole thread. You made claims, did not have the evidence to back them up (and I guess what you just said above was admitting that it wasn’t evidence anyway), and now I am twisting words?
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Opinions backed with evidence. Not your strong point, as we all know. After all, you just admitted that you couldn’t back your opinion with any.
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No, I stand by it. Unless you are prepared to tell me that you DON’T believe in the Bible literally word-for-word (which would go against everything you have shown of yourself). Because if you take that passage literally correct, it says that if you believe in me, you will be persecuted. And even if you play ignorant, it doesn’t take a big leap in logic to say that if people believe in the book literally, and there’s a passage which says you will be persecuted, you can be damn sure that they will find a way to make persecution out of nothing, like an asshole boss, purhaps.
**
I read that China has done its share of persecuting a slew of religious beliefs. They certainly have done quite a bit to raise the ire of Humanists (not a religion, per se, but a belief system nonetheless), that I can state for sure.
If anyone wants to dig up cites to show persecution of other religions, please do. I’ll find some if I can myself.
**
Actually, many of those cases are pending. And also, if you want to show persecution, it would have been the other way around: The court cases would have all been lost.
**
Yeah right. And I guess the two other posters who also took them on one at a time are also just watering it down, huh. :rolleyes:
Well, all of the man’s credentials are right there. How hard is it to get in touch with the school he teaches at and ask him yourself?
Oh, and as for you yosemitebabe, sorry if I was coming up harsh. I believe you that you don’t feel this is persecution. It’s just that between you posting in a persecution thread about something that you say isn’t persecution to back up something someone else said (FoGgy) when he said later that it’s not persecution, well, it boggles the mind, y’know?
Do you ever, ever, ever read a newspaper? I mean, EVER?! You’ve never heard of another religious group in China being persecuted? Do you live in a veal crate? How can a person of even limited intelligence who sees the news at all make such a claim?
One of the biggest stories of the past year in the news, one closely watched by human rights observers and civil libertarians, has been the persecution of the Falun Gong cult by the Chinese government. China is on a quest to wipe them out. Anything that might be happening to Christians pales in comparison to what’s happening to Falun Gong.
Never heard of any cases, indeed. Wake the hell up already. Get your news from somebody other than James Dobson and the rest of your fundie pals, because they are liars. They do not tell you what is going on the world. I think Ben’s nailed it–they give you pornography. This has been all over the papers and newswires for a year, and yet you’ve never heard of it. Maybe if you didn’t deliberately choose to make yourself ignorant, and live in a cultural vacuum devoid of anything resembling actual information, you would not appear so foolish when you say things like this.
I might add that we may add the Turkic Muslims of China’s far West to the list of persecuted religious minorities. Although, of course, there is a strong political element in this. And should we forget the Tibetans? Surely we can include them in part in the religious rubric.
How does this logically follow from the antecedent?
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Evidence, please?
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Funny, I thought you just said there was a lot of it here.
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You said “thus, Christians tend to be the biggest target” more than once, but somehow, it never seems to logically connect to anything you’ve said. How does the existence of intolerance logically lead to Christians being the biggest target?
Oh, this is just way too hypocritically funny for words!
“Oh, woe is me, for I am but a devout Christian, and us saints are persecuted and harassed on all sides by bigots and other intolerant people, who find us to be the biggest targets around! Please, let’s all be friends and stop the hatred – except for those Sothern Baptists, fundamentalists, and other ‘sects’ (meaning not real Christians like myself), those guys deserve to be thrashed, and I’ll be glad to help!”
Sheesh. :rolleyes: This is precisely why I’m an atheist…
Thank you, I could not have asked for a better example…well, mabe a better example, but this one is so fast & on target. Why debate when your opponents make your points for you?
Daniel, I’ll make you a deal: If you can provide evidence that, among active posters – not even all registered members, but just active posters – Christians constitute a minority, I will march myself down to the nearest McDonald’s and consume 2 Big Macs in your honor. If you cannot, you will make a $10 donation (a little more than the cost of 2 Big Mac value meals, I presume) to HSUS in your own name. What do you say? Willing to put your money where your mouth is?
FoG:Tell you what, China is probably the biggest hotbed of legitimate persecution toward Christians in the world today. If you believe that what you said is true, find out if other religious groups are equally persecuted.
!! Gee, FoG, I’m feeling ignored! I was the one who pointed out a few pages back (maybe it was at the end of the first “Movie that might change your life” thread, come to think of it) that religious repression in China is directed not only at Christians but at the Falun Gong, among others (though pld has done a much nicer job of documenting it). Here is the report of the International Coalition for Religious Freedom on religious repression in China, with documentation of persecution not only of Christians but of Buddhists and Muslims as well.
You may also wish to check out the same organization’s Religious Freedom World Report, a country-by-country analysis of government support for freedom of religion. I would estimate that Islamic theocracies and totalitarian Communist states tend to be most repressive, but as I pointed out before, in most cases they are attempting to quash all religious activity not promoted by the state, rather than engaging in specifically anti-Christian vendettas. The same tendency to repression is seen in many majority-Christian countries (e.g., in Latin America and Africa) which officially discriminate against groups like the Unification Church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Just out of idle curiousity, how could he (or anyone) actually do that? I mean, what constitutes an “active poster”? How do we figure out who the “active posters” are? What about people whose religions are unknown? I mean, it’s not like we had to register religious preference before joining. Without placing bets on it, I confess that my WAG is also that Christians are out-numbered around here, though I wouldn’t be overly surprised to find that I am wrong.
Maybe we could just unscientifically take a flier at it. Just off the top of my head:
I know I’m forgetting zillions of people but cut me some slack – I’ve given this about two minutes’ worth of thought. So you all pitch in and help out here.
That’s up to him to figure out. It’s his assertion, and I highly suspect that he’s wrong. I want to see him, for once, unequivocally back it up.
My suggestion would be to post a thread in IMHO or MPSIMS, state the terms of the bet, and ask people to simply post their religious self-identification. If nothing else, if they don’t like me, they have the chance to make me eat a hamburger by lying!
It’ll all be academic anyway, because DITWD will say he can’t prove it, but he just knows it’s true.
Satan? SATAN?!? You’ve just spent half this thread denying that what FoG and Yosemitebabe were dealing with was anything other than an “asshole boss.” Now suddenly you would have “stuck up for” FoG? Can we assume then that you really were acting like that just to spite these people this whole time? I don’t agree with a lot of the things FoG says, and I also agree that he has a tendency to make claims with no facts to back them up, but he’s a helluva lot more humble than you are and HE APOLOGIZES WHEN HE IS WRONG, and area in which you have proven yourself to be severely lacking.
FoG gave up his “persecution” claim many posts ago, whatever the sign on the thread might say. I understand why his original claims made you so angry, but it’s been over for a while now. Lighten up, dude.
Is this an apology?
As for the debate over whether Christians are in the minority on the SDMB, I agree that this is almost impossible to prove or disprove. Christians are not like “Wiccans” or “Hare Krishnas,” whose numbers are small enough that you either are or you aren’t. As I have said earlier in this thread, there are a lot of people in this country who are Christian in the cultural sense even if they do not refer to themselves as “Christian.” Perhaps the only reasonable criteria is to refer to as “Christian” whos posters who would agree to being called that.
But how? A thread titled “All SDMB Christians must register here?”
I was the one who pointed out a few pages back (maybe it was at the end of the first “Movie that might change your life” thread, come to think of it) that religious repression in China is directed not only at Christians but at the Falun Gong, among others (though pld has done a much nicer job of documenting it). Here is the