Daniel,
You’re not the one who made the claim that there’s organized persecution/discrimination against Christians; that was "Friend"ofGod who did.
Monty- you are completely right. And, i say that as far as the USA goes, Christians do not suffer persecution here. BUT- they do suffer intolerance at times. As a Mormon, you should know that better than I*.
*(Us Celtic Christians had our “persecutions” at the hands of the RCC some 1000 years ago, nobody much cares about us anymore.) 
Daniel, you think your group has been persecuted? I’m an Irish Jew! 
I’m well aware that vanilla started the “Christians post here” thread, Daniel. And I’ve clearly stated the the presence of two different threads, either of which might rise and fall off the firts page of IMHO at any time, is not acceptable to me for the terms of the bet. One thread, the terms clearly stated, where all comers can post.
If you don’t want to take the bet, just say so. What’s the matter–afraid you’ll lose? You’re so confident that Christians are a minority, how could you lose? I think your unwillingness to even discuss terms or think about taking the bet shows just how weak your position is. If you lose it only costs you 10 bucks. Come on, all the cool kids are doing it.
This is precisely what I was afraid of. If we don’t ask non-Christians what their religious beliefs are, then Christians can have a large plurality even if they don’t have a majority- and they can then incorrectly claim to be a “minority.” Of course, some might do that anyway, since they could claim that all non-Christians are part of some “spiritual conspiracy” or some such.
As it turns out, enough people are self-identifying that we should be able to sort it out.
-Ben
Phil,
How about all believers?
That would include all religious beliefs, so-called chrisitan or not.
Then you would win.
And we do hope you do.
I, for one, don’t give a rat’s ass about any bet. I think it’s interesting to see see the makeup of the Board, or at least of those who have bothered to respond. (The insurmountable problem, of course, is that there may be lots of people, of various faiths or no faiths, whose response to questions about their beliefs is “none of your beeswax,” and who therefore won’t answer anyway.)
The extremely unscientific evidence of the two threads in IMHO appears to indicate that (a) Christians are NOT the majority of posters here, if you weigh them against every other stripe of poster, from non-Christian people of faith to vehement atheists; but (b) Christians are possibly the largest single group of posters, if you measure them against every other individual group of posters (though atheist/agnostic might give 'em a run for their money).
This is about what I thought, anyway. Does anyone interpret disagree that this appears to be the case?
(I also would say, parenthetically, that I fail to see what difference it could make whether the question is asked in separate threads or one thread, or what difference it could make whether the stated motivation for asking is simple curiosity or the existence of a wager. Which is why I’m willing to draw totally unscientific conclusions based on the threads as they exist right now.)
One can argue day in and day out about which religion, of all those in the world, is persecuted the most, and one will probably never reach a definite conclusion. In each religion, there are going to be members who sternly believe that their faith is the most strongly persecuted. I won’t even mention my own religion, because it has no bearing on the issue. I will say, however, that I am becoming bored with hearing that Christians are the most persecuted of all. One must remember the Crusades, which “saved” Christianity. Nevermind that it was at the cost of entire nations worth of people. I implore all of you to forget the millions upon millions of Jewish who were brutally murdered in our own time. Christianity is not the only religion present, and thus it is not the only religion that is persecuted. It is not a matter of how much someone or something is persecuted, but that he/she/it is persecuted at all. I will not say that anyone is right or wrong, but I will say that instead of trying to claim the title of “Most Persecuted,” why not try to wipe out all persecution?
I’m amazed that anyone could see this as persecution, or harassment, or whatever, against Christians
Specifically saying that Christians are welcome is “harassment”?
And just what is the point of this proposed religion poll thread? Seeing as how the “winner” will be whichever side ignores it the most won’t what it really show be just which side is more honest? If there are 100 atheist and 50 Christians, and all the Christians show up while three fourths of the atheists decided “Hey, if I post, that will just prove FoG right. Why should I post?” then it will appear that there are more Christians. How about instead choosing random numbers, finding the corresponding post, and seeing whether it was written by a Christian or not?
You win.
(have you ever read “How the Irish saved Civilization”?)
Ryan- becuase we do not know what the religous persuasion of most posters. We need them to identify themselves. But it would be more scientific than the idea czarcasm & I came up with. However, unworkable at present.
jodi- I agree completely- As I said before, Christians, according to all the evidence, form a “plurality”, but are not a majority. We account for some 40% of the board, by the last time I added it up. Higher than I would have guessed, but still technically a “minority”. Of course that means that NO religous persuasion forms a majority- we are ALL minorities. Yes- that is exactly what you get when NOBODY commands 51%*.
*(This should be no surprize to our Isreali freinds, who have to put up with the 'strange bedfellows" politics in the Likud)
Posting my reply to the pole on the “Christians in here” thread in IMHO really got me thinking…(and since I know everyone is just dying to know what I am thinking, here you go…)
There is so much variety within the boundaries of “Christian,” that simply counting them isn’t going to prove anything for this thread. When folks like FoG say that Christians are in the minority, what they mean is Christians who will stand up and make a stink when their religion is questioned.
I was surprised to find myself posting in the “Christian” thread. Until faced with a decision between one or the other, I would have thought myself to be non Christian. But I was raised Christian. My values (besides being just generally American) are Christian in the most basic cultural sense. For folks like me, the question of whether or not you are a Christian might as well be answered by flipping a coin. I know there must be (gut feeling…no stats) a ton of folks like me in both threads. Which means that depending on what you mean by Christian, all the numbers are getting screwed up.
For me, the point of this thread (despite the heading) has sort of become the fact that there are a million different ways to be Christian. You can be Christian personally. You can be Christian publicly. You can even be a Christian and not know it. You can be a Christian and not admit it. You can be a Christian and believe in Creationism or in Natural Selection. You can CALL yourself a Christian whether you love or hate homosexuals (although if you fall into the hate camp, I will call you a liar). You don’t have to go to church.
And you don’t have to sit around on the freaking message boards and figure out who outnumbers who. What’s the point?
Anyway…this is my first (and last) warm-fuzzies Christian post. For what it’s worth. I think what FoG and Danielinthewolvesden are actually experiencing here is not anti-Christian backlash from non-Christians, but rather backlash on the part of intellectuals against posters they regard as ignorant. And the loudest ignorant posters happen to be ones who distribute ignorance under the name “Christian.” (This has been stated much more simply by Satan in this very same thread.)
But still:
I can’t say that this sort of comment is just brimming with religious tolerance. And yet I can’t say that it is an unjustified comment, either. And this is the kind of thing that goies on on this board all the time that FoG et al are complaining about. What is wrong about it? What is right about it? I’m having a hard time putting my finger on it. Is there anyone who can help me express this?
I just wanted to say that one day, threads like this should be simply printed out, bound, and sold as books.
Forums which scale such heights raise the internet from a way to waste time, find porn, and meet others with whom you already agree.
This is where wars SHOULD be fought.
The words of contributors stand and fall by their own weight, not the power of the speaker as they do in the real world. And debates can drag on and on, unlike on television where the 5 second ‘sound grab’ spoken by a politician is all you really hear.
In short, I’m impressed, and will read through as many other threads as I can.
If you’re confused by my fascination, I should say I’m located in Sydney, Australia. Here, the American style of Christianity has been trying to invade for years, and yet, but for a few early morning television shows and a few sad yanks wandering around shopping malls holding bibles, it just hasn’t been happening for them. Why? In my opinion it’s because Christianity as it already exists in Australia is there for community and charity, not for ‘spreading the word’. People don’t say ‘hi, I’m a Christian’, people are defined as people first, not members of institutions. Hence, it is of profound value to hear, in detail, the assertions, arrogance, and disturbing insecurities of both ‘Christians’ and ‘Christian haters’ alike. Such debates have value beyond the scope that participators might imagine - they reveal an entire society that is utterly divided, but for the ability to argue.
Jodi, I think your conclusions are correct, and I’ve said so all along. No particular religious affiliation has a majority at the SDMB, but Christians are almost certainly the single largest group of all groups.
As far as the data collection method, it matters to me only to the extent that DITWD wants to take the bet, specifically because he has a history of being a weasel. Even now, I can hear him in the distance, claiming he won a bet with me on this topic.
Can’t say I blame you, either. But then, coming after DITWD’s wonderfully self-serving statement, it wasn’t really meant to be tolerant and patient. As I said in my earlier reply, it’s got nothing to do with religion and everything to do with stupidity.
(Maybe I should have a shirt made up – “I mock stupid people”. Hmmmm…)
Maybe the problem is that, in the course of expressing their faith and beliefs, people like DITWD or FriendOfGod make statements that other people find provocative, eye-rolling, incredulous, or whatever-other-term-have-you. And then, when those folks call them to task, they interpret such responses as “persecution”, not realizing that it’s something they brought onto themselves?
Could you elaborate? In particular, a number of people have stressed that there are no “Christian haters” involved in this debate. What do you make of that claim?
-Ben
Go back to thread page3. You asked for a “yawn-cite” that Christians are in the Minority, and a few posts later, you offer to bet with me to show EVIDENCE that Christians are not a minority. However, they are, as the EVIDENCE (not proof) clearly shows, and you just admiteed. However, I did say “no bet”- as figures were already coming in. And, no, we were NOT going to “run a another poll in MPSIMS”- as that is not the place for POLLING, and the MODERATOR for the forum where POLLING should be held- pointed out the multiple thread idea- in HIS forum. Why run ANOTHER poll? A POLL was held- under the moderation of czarcasm, and it shows that Christians are in a clear minority. However, like I said- Christians APPEAR to have a PLURALITY (ie, no one group has a 51% MAJORITY)- altho “don’tcare/agnostic/ atheist/secular humanist” appear to be running a close second.) So, who is the 'weasel" now, bucko?
OH, and would you like to back up that “history of being a weasel” bit? Besides the biased opinions of atheists & religous bigots? Never mind, you’ll just continue with the well-known “big lie” techniques. Hey, if you say I am a child-molester enough times, you can say THAT is 'well-known", too. I COULD say that you are a “well known liar”… oh, sorry, that is redundant.
Don’t bother to reply.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
**
Um, thanks, but I don’t take orders from you, kiddo. I know you like to entertain the notion that you have some actual authority here – “Don’t say ‘fuck’ in GD! Don’t call people liars! Don’t do this!” – but you don’t, and Gaudere has whipped your ass for it more than once.
No, I asked you to provide evidence that they are. I don’t expect you to understand the difference.
Um, gee, by that criteria, all the groups are a minority. Jews, Christians, atheists, and Wiccans. All minorities. :rolleyes:
Well, gee, I guess we could’ve held the single-thread poll there, huh? :rolleyes:
Danny, when Gallup runs polls concerning the Presidential election, do they run one mentioning only the Democratic candidate, and one with only the Republican candidate?
If, in a system with more than two choices, some group has a plurality, they can in no significant way be said to be “a clear minority.” Again, I’m not surprised that the distinction eludes you.
>>>>snort<<< Sure! Look in a mirror!
Yes, that’s right, I hate all religious people. :rolleyes:
Uh-huh. Hey, do you remember that time that you argued for three pages that the outdated concept of Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasian “races” was genetically valid and significant, and a bunch of other people handed you your ass, and you finally came to the realization that you had no idea what you were talking about, and then continued to attempt to argue that there was some significance in genetic homogenity at the population level, and people continued to hand you your ass?
Oh, remember when you called ~spoke a KKK apologizer and racist, too? With the eye-poppingly disingenuous sentence, “Here’s a shoe–see if it fits?”
DITWD, when you say that Christians are in the minority, you know full well that it implies that there are fewer Christians on this board than any other philosophical group, which is obviously not true. Most of the people here are using the term “Majority” to mean “Plurality”, as in “Majority stockholder”. When it comes to influencing the President, Congress, and(to an extent) the Supreme Court, Christians have the advantage over any other philosophical group.
When I read these words and tried to reconcile it with the author’s previous postings I nearly experienced total core dump. This must be what the SDMB looks like on Bizarro World.
My freind, Christians do indeed have a majority in the USA as a whole, and thu do have the advantage when it comes to political influence. More votes= more influence- ain’t that the American way?
But, when you are talking about the SDMB, Christians here run about 40%, about half in the general USA population. Less than 51% is indeed, a “minority”, more than 50% is a “majority”. When no groups have 51%, the group with the largest number (and this appears to be Christians, altho NON-beleivers of various sorts are very close)- has a “plurality”. Oxford= “A large or the greater number”. Minority=“the state of being supported by less than half of the body of opinion”. Now, I will grant you, that in some usages of “minority & majority”, one could say that a group which just has MORE has a majority, but that fails the technical meaning, and renders useless the word “plurality”. Thus, you will note, so as to not “imply” anything, I carefully spelled it out, ie “Christians are in the minority, having less than 51%, but at about 40%, do appear to have a plurality”- so as no-body get confused as to which connotation of “minority & majority” I am using. Thus, I made a very strong attempt to NOT “imply” anything, the numbers are right there for all to see. I even admitted some surprise that Christians were some 40%; if I had had to guess, i would have said 33% or so, with atheists, agnostics, etc having the plurality by a small margin.