Has the Book of Revelation got it down pat?
Is the Book of Revelation only a metaphor for what will happen and, if so, what does this metaphor actually mean?
Or will The Second Coming have nothing to do with that book? What’s the lowdown?(and if you could identify which sect, if any, you follow please do so-thank you.)
Catholic, so while the world is expected to end at some point, the details in Revelations are not to be taken literally. Well, it being one of the poetic books, it… well, it’s like what some friends tell me about watching Pink Floyd’s The Wall: it’s best done while you’re yourself not sober.
Makes for some pretty imagery, though: we’re particularly fond of those images of a woman in white and blue garb, with the moon at her feet and a crown of stars, but an excuse to sculpt or paint some dragons never goes amiss either.
Then what is the Catholic take on The Second Coming then , if that isn’t it?
…it wastes sacred sperm?
That it’s an image.
The idea of the Final Judgment is the basis for the Catholic notion of “purgatory”: you get tried when you die, but you get a second chance at the end of times. But as for how will the world end, all that rapture stuff is viewed as poetry. It’s pretty, but like the idea of every day in the Creation stories being 24h as marked by a Swiss watch, not only are we not required to believe it literally - we’re not expected to. We use the imagery a lot in literature and art because hey, it’s a common frame of reference, everybody understands it and it saves us the work of having to come up with a new design, but “144000 saved”, exactly 144000? Don’t tell the Big Guy how to do His job…
It’s a lot like Dante’s Comedy: the Comedy does not give rise to new theology and is based in part on the theology that comes out of the Apocalypsis, but this is actually a tiny part of total Catholic theology; neither the Comedy nor the Apocalypsis should be understood literally, both get a lot of mileage as reference images. There’s people who use drugs on purpose in order to try and be as imaginative as St John and Dante.
Yes, I’ve got it-That’s the second time you’ve said what won’t happen. Again I ask you: According to Catholic teachings as you understand them, what will happen?
Whatever happens, astronomers haven’t made up their collective minds yet. Then again, the species may have gone to Hell (or Heaven) way before the Sun does… or spread through the stars… who knows? It’s not a matter for theology.
The Second Coming is not a matter for Catholic theology? :dubious:
Moving on…any other religious takes on TSC?
Like all religions, the Catholics pick and choose what parts of their religious books to get all worked over and what parts to ignore.
We, at the layman level, largely, ignore Revelations and the concept of the second coming… and if some might find “ignore” to be too strong a word, let’s just say we’re not thinking it is imminent.
While there are the occasional Mass reading from the Book, there are no classes studying Revelations (like I’ve seen advertised in some Protestant bulletins), it is never referred to in the homilies, and if I didn’t have a grandmother who was a converted Baptist and if I didn’t grow up in the South, then I probably would have very little concept of the mythology of the Second Coming.
The end of times is, but the specific details of how it will happen are not, dragons and women giving birth in the middle of the sky are images not to be taken literally. Cities which sound like the posh version of a Roman fort are images not to be taken literally and theologians don’t care to come up with alternate designs (city design is a different profession). The Second Coming is an image not to be taken literally and I know you’ve already read that but what do you want me to say, that’s what I’ve been taught!
The people who take it literally are the same ones who tend to think that we’re not Christians and our Baptism doesn’t count - or rather, no Baptism but theirs counts.
ETA after seeing JohnT’s post: it is referred to in the homilies, at least in homilies I’ve attended. Whenever there is a reading from the Book of Revelations there may be a reference to whatever bit was read. But often the reference is “please don’t take it literally”, same as when Creation or the Ark come up.
I’ve got it-No “Book of Revelation” involved. If there is any discussion at all in Catholic circles about the return of Christ, what then is said?
The Credo itself says that Christ will be part of Final Judgement. It’s recited in every Mass, but that’s all it says.
Same in the Lutheran Church (well liberal Lutheranism anyways). Second Coming will happen, we aren’t sure of how or when. The Book of Revelation has some themes that will likely be fulfilled, but it should be read in a mytho-poetic way (as like the Creation narrative). We tend focus on the new Heaven and the new Earth part.
Elaborate a little on that, please?
Let me elaborate.
The Book of Revelations is mostly accepted as prophecy (if vivid and confusing). However, it was specifically believed to be prophecy about an event which historically happened: the fall of Rome as a center of persecution and its “conquest” by Christianity. (Obviously, Revelations was written long before those events.) That said, there are a variety of ways of interpreting it, and some people think it’s about the Final Judgement.
As far as the mechanics of the Second Coming, Catholicism has nothing particular to say other than it will happen. Various statements suggest that it will not be anticipated. There is more to state about what happens after the Second Coming. There is no statement on when, where, or how it will happen. Just that sooner or later, probably when we’re not expecting it, this world will end.
What kind of answer are you looking for?
Just what, if anything, your particular sect had to say specifically about The Second Coming.
I think the reason I am curious is that in another thread someone mentioned that when the messiah returns it will be such an obvious event that it will be universally recognized as such by Christians(and even Jews!) and I’m wondering how true that statement is.
Yeah, you’re right - I phrased it badly. What I meant to say is that homilies are never about Revelations, the Second Coming, End Times, etc… but yes, they do reference the book if it is part of the morning readings. Again, in a 2,000 year-old global organization there will be differences, but in my experience, the next time I sit in a Fire and Brimstone, “we’re in the End Times as foretold by Revelations” type sermon in a RCC Mass will be the first.
This is based on Luke 17:22-24.
I am not aware that there is ‘official’ doctrine on the subject in the Lutheran tradition.
Regards,
Shodan
I would have to go back and read some of the Gospels carefully, but while I obviously can’t speak for the Church (understatement of the century), the implication is that it will happen suddenly and humanity isn’t going to be prepared. Whether it shall be dramatic or noticeable at the time isn’t clear. The Catholic Church (and the Orthodox, and most Protestant particular churches) do not have an official view on what will happen.
Let’s just say that when it does happen, you, me and quite a few others will be scrambling to find a way to delete many of our posts on this MB! 