Christians: What's the lowdown on The Second Coming?

[Knowed_Out]

You know how ranting drunks hate to be disbelieved? This is John all over. He’s recalling anecdotes and leaping around the segues.

Chapter 11, where John says you better believe him

“And then they told me to measure this temple and count the worshipers, but don’t count the courtyard, because all those goyims outside are gonna stomp around for forty-two months. And those two olive trees and two lampstands? They’re my witnesses. Better not fuck with them, because they’ll fuck up the weather and burn you alive. Let them talk for forty-two months, then the Beast will come kill them. WHY DOES HE GET TO KILL THEM? I DUNNO! THIS IS GOD TALKING SO SHUT UP!”

1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who are worshiping in it.
2 But exclude the outer court of the temple; do not measure it, for it has been handed over to the Gentiles, who will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
3 I will commission my two witnesses to prophesy for those twelve hundred and sixty days, wearing sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone wanting to harm them is sure to be slain.
6 They have the power to close up the sky so that no rain can fall during the time of their prophesying. They also have power to turn water into blood and to afflict the earth with any plague as often as they wish.
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will wage war against them and conquer them and kill them.

[Nava]

@dropzone

Been reading The Hour of Our Death: The Classic History of Western Attitudes Toward Death over the Last One Thousand Years by Philippe Aries, and he charts the evolution of the End Times since Roman times. (He’s flexible about what constitutes “the last one thousand years.”) It keeps changing.

Well, he just uses a Pentateuch measurement of time. Very appropriate!

[Knowed_Out]

How is this anything else but drunken rambling? Now he’s hung up on forty-two months.

Chapter 12, where John has a dragon chasing around some broad who just gave birth

“OK, this chick is gonna appear in the sky, and she’s wearing sun beams and she’s got stars on her head and she’s standing on the moon. She’s gonna come down, and this big dragon is gonna follow her around and try to eat her boy when she gives birth. But she’s gonna get away, and these people in the desert are gonna take care of her for forty-two months.” (there’s that figure again)
“As for the son, he’s gonna grow up and rule the entire planet with an iron rod. Then, Michael and the angels are gonna fight this dragon, who’s actually Satan, who’s gonna deceive the entire planet, see? They’ll throw him down to earth and he’s gonna get up and chase this chick around. Anyway, this chick’s gonna get wings and fly away to be taken care of by people in the desert for a year. Plus two years. And a half year.” (forty-two months again) “Whaddaya mean I already said that? No, I didn’t! Shut up!”

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.
4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.
6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back,
8 but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.
13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year.

[Knowed_Out]

Here, John gets a city’s dimensions mixed up, or he was taking their flight zone into account. Thousands of years before airplanes existed.

Chapter 21, where John thinks a city is a giant cube

“All those bastards, the cowards, the ones who fool around, the sickos, the murderers, the fuckers who didn’t get married, the idolaters, idolists, whatever, all the damn liars, they’re gonna burn. Each and every one of them is gonna burn!
“Then this guy gave me a golden rod and told me to measure the whole city, and guess what? It’s a cube! A fucking huge cube, 1500 miles to each side, including up! And the wall’s a hundred and forty-four cubits tall! No, it’s not 1500 miles you idiot, it’s 144 cubits! The city’s 1500 miles high, not the wall!”

8 “But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
15 The one who spoke to me held a gold measuring rod to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.
16 The city was square, its length the same as [also] its width. He measured the city with the rod and found it fifteen hundred miles in length and width and height.
17 He also measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits according to the standard unit of measurement the angel used.

[tomndebb]

Knowed Out, you repetitive posts are also beginning to look like the ramblings of a person who may have been less than sober when posting.

The reality is that an entire genre of literature developed around 200 years earlier that involved piling images upon images. Many of the odd descriptions and allusions were specifically tied to symbolism with which the audience would have been familiar but which has since been lost to us.

There are examples of pre-apocalyptic passages in Ezekiel, Chapters 38 and 39, in Isaiah, chapters 33 - 35, and a few other places. The images conjured up in those passages became inspiration for later works.

That The Revelation of John and a couple of lengthy passages from the prophet Daniel are the only extended passages in the bible that display that genre means that few people are aware of just how extensive that literature was or how it was used. There are almost a dozen and a half such works in the Jewish tradition that one can still find published and another dozen, or so, from Christian sources.

The notion that all of those authors, (over a 300-400 year period), got drunk to write them while the books were prized enough to be read and copied by various religious groups is unlikely.

[OffByOne]

Any Day Now ™

[Knowed_Out]

@tomndebb

Knowed Out, you repetitive posts are also beginning to look like the ramblings of a person who may have been less than sober when posting.

I admit nothing.

How many know that Revelations had more than one author? How many understand the passages use symbolism? How many of those interpret the symbolism correctly? Some Christians take the Bible literally and read this as prophecy, rather than as an op-ed piece.

John of Patmos was in exile and living in a penal colony when he wrote this. It stands to reason that he would have been somewhat bitter at the Romans, and couldn’t risk angering his captors, so he creatively changed the names.

[Ukulele_Ike]

What will actually happen, according to the Church of Decadent Aestheticism (write for our free pamphlet!):

…A vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.

[Pleonast]

How many know the book under discussion is singular?

[DrDeth]

@Knowed_Out

How many know that Revelations had more than one author? .

This is by no means a certainty. So, the answer is “nobody”.

You can say that Revelation is suspected of having multiple authors.

[tomndebb]

@Knowed_Out

I admit nothing.

How many know that Revelations had more than one author? How many understand the passages use symbolism? How many of those interpret the symbolism correctly? Some Christians take the Bible literally and read this as prophecy, rather than as an op-ed piece.

John of Patmos was in exile and living in a penal colony when he wrote this. It stands to reason that he would have been somewhat bitter at the Romans, and couldn’t risk angering his captors, so he creatively changed the names.

None of this conflicts with the points I have made. On the other hand, accusing an author of being drunk when they are doing a very careful job of following the protocols of a genre seems odd, at best.

And there are certainly a lot of people who are ignorant of many aspects of the Revelation of John, (the name of the book, for one), particularly the way in which symbolism is used or the ideas that the symbolism is supposed to convey. Odd accusations of drunkenness do nothing to mitigate against that ignorance.

[smithsb]

Dear tomndebb, I find your criticism of Knowed Out wholly without merit and lacking in the spirit of this board. His plain language interpretations of quoted text were spot on. Humor and wit are in all-to-short supply in our world. Please be more reasoned in the future.

And thanks for being a moderator, The pay is totally inadequate for the contributions you make to these boards.

[FriarTed]

I’ve been elsewhere for a while but I want to add to this soon as I get some time.

Let’s just say that I was Rapturist & now I’m a mix of Preterist w/Historic PreMillenialism.

Which raises more questions that it answers.

[Knowed_Out]

@tomndebb

None of this conflicts with the points I have made. On the other hand, accusing an author of being drunk when they are doing a very careful job of following the protocols of a genre seems odd, at best.

And there are certainly a lot of people who are ignorant of many aspects of the Revelation of John, (the name of the book, for one), particularly the way in which symbolism is used or the ideas that the symbolism is supposed to convey. Odd accusations of drunkenness do nothing to mitigate against that ignorance.

I’m just saying that many who read Revelations may not be aware of the genre, or that there’s use of a certain literal style. When John is talking about 10-headed beasts with 7 horns and diadems (or whatever the numbers and features are), how’s an unenlightened reader supposed to take it? Christians who are taught to never doubt God’s word are going to expect multi-headed monsters and Jesus with a sword for a tongue. You haven’t really explained what the symbols are supposed to mean, which isn’t exactly fighting ignorance either.

[tomndebb]

@Knowed_Out

I’m just saying that many who read Revelations may not be aware of the genre, or that there’s use of a certain literal style. When John is talking about 10-headed beasts with 7 horns and diadems (or whatever the numbers and features are), how’s an unenlightened reader supposed to take it? Christians who are taught to never doubt God’s word are going to expect multi-headed monsters and Jesus with a sword for a tongue. You haven’t really explained what the symbols are supposed to mean, which isn’t exactly fighting ignorance either.

There are many sources to discover the symbolism of the book. This thread is not the place to attempt to explain them all, (and the text is too rich for any post or thread to actually attempt to replace any of the large volumes that have addressed them).

My only intention was to point out that making silly claims about a drunken author did more to promote ignorance than to fight it.
I am well aware of the number of people who do not understand the background of the book. Your repetitive attempts to “blame” the symbolism on drunkenness led me to believe you were among them.

[Pleonast]

@Knowed_Out

Christians who are taught to never doubt God’s word are going to expect multi-headed monsters and Jesus with a sword for a tongue.

The “Word of God” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

[Knowed_Out]

@tomndebb

My only intention was to point out that making silly claims about a drunken author did more to promote ignorance than to fight it.
I am well aware of the number of people who do not understand the background of the book. Your repetitive attempts to “blame” the symbolism on drunkenness led me to believe you were among them.

I meant it in jest. I really don’t know the state of John of Patmos’s mind, but I did speculate earlier that he was bitter over his exile. That’s just one take and there are many others, but as far as I know, the most prevalent notion is that he’s talking about the End of Days. That’s the basis of a lot of Apocalypse scares, which are much more damaging and deleterious than saying he was drunk.

[T.M]

@Czarcasm

Has the Book of Revelation got it down pat?
Is the Book of Revelation only a metaphor for what will happen and, if so, what does this metaphor actually mean?
Or will The Second Coming have nothing to do with that book? What’s the lowdown?(and if you could identify which sect, if any, you follow please do so-thank you.)

No one is absolutely clear on who wrote the Book of Revelation, it is very symbolic and needs to be cross referenced with both Old and New Testament’s plus a great deal of the scripture omitted from the New Testament. It is thought by some that the Book of Revelation is written by the same author as the Gospel of Saint John which is also symbolic and differs in places with the other three gospels. In other words a can of worms.
The New Testament tells us that Jesus said that he will return he did not say when or where but he did say that we would not recognise him, leaving us with the possibility that he has returned several times to check up on us. As there have been no global catastrophes it could be considered that we are coming on nicely and should be left alone to continue.

A none dogmatic Christian who sides with no sect and who believes that both the Bible and Quran have been politically manipulated so that their leaders can exert authority over their followers

[Czarcasm]

@T.M

The New Testament tells us that Jesus said that he will return he did not say when or where…

Not exactly(bolding mine):
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
“Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.** Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.**“ (Luke 21:27-32)

[smiling_bandit]

I don’t believe those were talking about the Second Coming as such, but rather other events which did in fact occur before the end of the first century.

Your mileage may vary.