Christians who love Jesus

Great Debates
21

You believe it literally, as you already said. Hyperbole is a kind of “figurative” language, as I learned in 6th grade. Make up your mind.

Well, if God’s a vengeful God, then he’s not omnibenevolent, is he? And if he’s not omnibenevolent, then He doesn’t neccessarily have to be better than you or I. So why should I worship him.

OK, look. If you see a fossil of a dinosaur that’s 100 million years old, a fossil of a 75% dinosaur 25% bird that’s 75 million years old, a half-and-half fossil that’s 50 million years old, a 25% dinosaur 75% bird fossil that’s 25 million years old, and a bird today, some of us are going to want to draw conclusions from it. As some important person the name of whom I currently forget said: “I find it impossible that a God who has endowed us with reason intends us to forego its use” Or is reason the work of the Devil?

As for 3, I’ve tried. I’ve tried pretty much all of the things that are supposed to help me see God, including, when I was younger, believing in Him. So either God hates me in particular, or He doesn’t reveal Himself to many people.

Farewell, farewell, but this I tell
To thee, thou Wedding-Guest
He prayeth well who loveth well
Both man and bird and beast

He prayeth best who loveth best
All things both great and small
For the dear God who loveth us
He made and loveth all

Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Rime of the Ancient Mariner

22

Spiritus, you said:

Your point is? What does the Holy Spirit have to do with using hyperbole and the discussion we are in? Jesus told many parables and used many examples to get his point across. Those parables and examples had real life connections.

You also said

Think maybe some of those terrible things might have been necessary for His chosen people to survive? I don’t know those answers, but I’ll be sure to ask when I get to see Him. You might want to ask a Jew why they still worship that “terrible” God of the OT, but I worship the God that sent His Son to die for my sins and provides the Holy Spirit to each of those who accept Him.

Giant Squid Omnibenevolent…That’s a new term to me. :slight_smile: Well, I all I can say is that if you are on His side, you don’t have to worry about it.

I can’t answer why you feel God has never revealed himself to you. I can tell you He doesn’t hate you. He sent his Son for anyone and everyone who would accept him. It takes faith in believing that. You tried believing in Him when you were young. Why not try it again. Really try. Maybe, just maybe He will once and for all reveal Himself. It takes faith that He will, though.

Well, I think this has been a good debate and discussion for the most part. I’m taking a break from the computer for the rest of the evening so, I’ll check back sometime later tomorrow - that is if I’m still welcome.

Happy New Year, y’all!

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

23

As far as I’m concerned, Mike, you’re welcome here. All we really ask here is that posters make every attempt to back up their claims with evidence, and I believe you’ve done a good job of that. Admittedly, it’s tough to “prove” things of a spiritual nature…but that’s why this is Great Debates.

I’ve been staying out of this fray for most of the day because there was a lot of anger and hurt feelings…people were posting with all that weighing on their minds. Also, I feel that we were misrepresented, and many (though not all) of the LBers believed those misrepresentations.

Now that calmer minds and rationality are restored–let’s fight about something!

Happy Millenium, All!
David

24

You can take text from the Bible to answer almost any question that you have…whether it be in the context it is meant to be in…or completely taken out of context. I am still very confused as to why evolution and creation are such a big issue…as Christians we believe in creation…so why does that flame the people that believe in evolution. And the Bible says six days and rest on the seventh…but what is a day to God? Ten thousand years to us is but a second of time to God…no where in the Bible does it give a description of the animals…and as we have seen through the years…man has a way of destroying the world around him…I can see from reading the threads…why the world is in the shape it is in…we get hung on the little things…while the big things beat us to death. There is one God…regardless of what you call him and more to the world than the small areas that we inhabit. Love is the key.

25

fuzzy-wuzzy wrote:

Okay, my question is this:

If I hook a 60 Hz AC source with an RMS voltage of 110V up to a 10 microfarad capacitor, a 100 ohm resistor, and a 600 microhenry induction coil, how much power will be dissipated from the resistor on average?

Hmmm … (thumbing through the scriptures) … Ezekiel doesn’t seem to do me any good here … neither does Isaiah … nope, none of the Proverbs talks about AC circuits … the Gospels aren’t much help either … Revelation comes up empty … uh, where should I look this one up again?

26

Well, most Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God place responsibility for the “dictation” with the Holy Spirit. This has been an established Christian dogma for centuries. If you do not follow it, fine. Please tell me how you think these “whole and true” revelations of God became recorded in a book.

As to why the point is Germane: You claimed to accept the words of teh Bible literally. Then you stated that a verse was hyperbole. Either you do not know th emeaning of th ewords you are using or you are a hypocrite. I was trying to determine which was the case.

So? You admit that the acts were terrible but find some justification in a provincial concern for a particular tribe of people. Hitler viewed his atrocities as necessary for the survival of his chosen people, too. That does not make them any less egregious. If your God cannot find a better way to liberate His chosen people than to slaughter the first born child of an entire population then he has less intelligence and imagination than your average 12 year old. He is also evil.

If a Jew tells me he supports the literal interpretation of the Old testament I will tell him the same things I have told you. As to which God you worship – you are the one who has identified him with the literal interpretation of OT scripture. I am simply taking you at your word. I have also made the assumption that you have read the books that you claim to believe are literally true. If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of those decisions, perhaps you need to look into your heart and decide where the conflict lies.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

27

Spritus First, I want to say that I’m not here to preach or to try and convert anyone. I’m simply standing up for my faith and beliefs. I’m far from a scholar, but my faith and love for the Lord causes me to search deeper into my faith each time it is questioned. Each time I do that I find my faith in Him even stronger.

I find it very sad that you must focus on the death and destruction of those who chose to be God’s enemy in the OT accounts. I choose to worship the God who sent His Son to sacrifice Himself out of love for everyone. Yes, God can be a vengeful God to those who choose to go against him. But he provided a way to share His love to anyone and everyone who chooses to follow Him and let Him be Lord of their lives.

Even sadder still is that those who do continue to choose to go against him will suffer His wrath in the end also. There is only one way out and that is through trust in Jesus Christ.

Again, I’m not here to convert you, only to stand by my faith. I will say that I am and will be praying for you that you may one day experience God’s true love.

Peace.

28

Tracer Tracer Tracer…I love ya…ha ha ha… I did leave myself open to that one now didn’t I? Hey…if you find the answer let me know…lol

29

Mea culpa, fuzzy-wuzzy.

I forgot to tell you that the AC source, the capacitor, the resistor, and the inductor were all in series.

Now it should be easy to solve.

30

First: as a Christian, I believe the theory of evolution has far more supporting evidence than any rival theory of the origin of species. So the ‘as Christians we believe in creation’ bit is nonsense. As a Christian, you believe in the Biblical creation story.

Please respect the differences among Christians, and don’t claim your personal beliefs apply to all of us. Christianity may be monolithic where you come from, but many of us out here are evangelically incorrect.

Second, that a great many Christians believe in the biblical creation story would be no more than a source of amusement and derision to the rest of us, if only you kept your hands off our textbooks. That flames us, and that’s what gives even atheists the moral right to go into places like the LBMB and argue creation v. evolution.

As long as you folks only talk to each other, you genuinely believe there’s better evidence for Biblical creation than there is for evolution, and that’s part of what gives you the incentive to take evolution out of the textbooks. We have an obligation to our own children to expose you to the evidence your pastor skips past.

31

So it’s OK to do evil things in order to survive? A God that puts that high a value on survival seems to be very different from the Christian God.

32

Quote:
First: as a Christian, I believe the theory of evolution has far more supporting evidence than any rival theory of the origin of species. So the ‘as Christians we believe in creation’ bit is nonsense. As a Christian, you believe in the Biblical creation story.
Please respect the differences among Christians, and don’t claim your personal beliefs apply to all of us. Christianity may be monolithic where you come from, but many of us out here are evangelically incorrect.

Second, that a great many Christians believe in the biblical creation story would be no more than a source of amusement and derision to the rest of us, if only you kept your hands off our textbooks. That flames us, and that’s what gives even atheists the moral right to go into places like the LBMB and argue creation v. evolution.

No disrepect intended … but what parts of the Bible as a Christian do you follow and what parts do you change to suit your Christianity?

33

The God who murdered innocent babies by the wagonload is the same God you choose to worship, unless you’re a polytheist. I wonder what those babies did to deserve the vengeance of God?

34

Since the opportunity has arisen, I would like to post a couple of, I guess, ‘fundy’ issues that I have problems with.

First, let me briefly state where I stand to make it easier for any responders. I am not a member of any religious group, and doubt that I ever will be. I do not believe in a specific ‘higher power’ of any kind. I guess I would best be described as an agnostic. I was raised in a Christian home (my father was a minister), so I am very familiar with the religion, not ignorant of it. I came to my personal beliefs through what I feel was objective thought concerning the nature of the real world.

Issue #1: This heaven/hell thing. The message preached repeatedly is that I will go to hell if I don’t believe as you do. What you don’t perhaps realize is that you are telling me that my deceased friends and family that did not believe as you do are, right now, suffering in hell, and will be for eternity. In case it hasn’t occurred to you, I would reject your religious beliefs for that reason alone. I will not even entertain the thought that those I loved and knew to be good people are suffering in that way, and I will not accept a ‘God’ that would do such a thing to them.

Issue #2): The rejection of the theory of evolution. This theory was developed by application of the scientific method and critical thinking to physical evidence and informed observation. This same scientific method and manner of thinking is also responsible for the development of the medicines you take and treatments you receive when you are sick, the computer you are using,the car you drive,the TV and movies you watch,the electricity that powers your home and work place, and myriad other facets of your life. If you are going to reject the theory of evolution, then logically you must reject the scientific method and all of the results derived therefrom. But I don’t see many ‘true believers’ living in caves without electricity, toilets, TVs, medical care, etc. Most of you seem to be perfectly willing to embrace technology and whatever scientific developments benefit you personally, but reject the one facet that conflicts with your beliefs.

I would be interested in any comments/explanations about the above issues.

Carpe diem - Seize the day
Carpe noctem - Seize the night
Carpe cerevisi - Seize the beer

35

Hey Mike!! How ya doin??? I come to back you up! {{{{{{{SHO}}}}}}}}}}}

David (SF), see, I’m here!! And I don’t run off easy…

Ok, just come to throw my support in with Mike. I like debate too.

36

Hey neat! I enjoy a good debate as well. When I have a bit more time I’d like to address some of the issues that people have here. Some of the responses from Christians will be interesting. Simply, because I as a Christian (if you couldn’t tell due to my handle :)also have differences of opinion.

Well I’ve ranted long enough be back later with my take on some of these questions.

“To everthing there is a season.”-Ecclesiastes

37

Coosa’s Issue #1~
Believe it or not, I understand what you’re saying completely. I have family that is, or probably will be there too. But I understand the being good is just not good enough. I also have faith that God knows what’s best. That’s not something that can be explained. So you learn to handle it. Next?

38

Wow! Been a lot of activity since yesterday afternoon. Hi Lauralee and Christian - feel free to jump in anytime.

My comment to all those who continue to call God cruel, merciless, hateful and spiteful. I don’t have all the answers and anyone who claims to is just guessing. Note: Everything I have to say from this point on is my opinon based on my faith. Take it for what you think it’s worth.

What I do believe is that God created every human being in order for that person to worship Him. He gives everyone freewill to choose to do that or not - even those who don’t hear the name Jesus Christ professed to them, according to the apostle Paul in Romans 1. The proof of the existance of God is all around. There have been tribes of natives all around the world, that when Christian missionaries would show up to share the gospel, they had already known of the existence of God of those missionaries, but didn’t know about him in the Christian sense.

Why did innocent people die in those Old Testament accounts? Like I said, I don’t know the answers just like I don’t know the answers of why innocent people die today. God created this world to be perfect in every sense, but also allowed for man to screw it up. That happened with the first man alive and it’s been down hill since. Bad things happen to good people because of sin, even the sin of other people. There is no human on earth that never sinned except Jesus Himself.

But the great thing is that even though He allowed man to screw up His perfect creation, He still loved man enough to offer hope and salvation and in the end, a way out of the suffering. But their is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ.

So, coosa. Yes, in my belief and in the Christian teaching, if your friends and family died without the saving grace of Christ, then I’m sadly afraid they are suffering in hell today. I hate to think about it myself, because I have friends and family in the same predicament.

All I can say is that anyone who looks past His love for each of us, and especially for those who follow Him, and only at death can’t have much happiness in their lives to begin with. Sure I have troubles in my life. I’ve been through a time of hell on earth in my own life. But I also now have something to hold on to and give me assurance that no matter what I face on this earth, I’ll live in eternal paradise once I leave this place.

A personal note to RTFirefly. I guess I’m really confused on your stance on Christianity. You say you’ve been “born again” - I believe you said it was something like 30 years ago. Where is your stance on Christianity? Who is God to you? What is the Bible to you? I don’t know your heart, but if your Christianity isn’t a personal relationship with Christ the Savior - no matter what else you believe outside of that - what is it? I’d really like to know.

Thanks once again for allowing me this time. Again, take it for what you think it’s worth, but I hope that one day these words may mean something of value.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

39

I was running long on my last reply and didn’t touch on the “rejection of evolution” by us “fundies”. Again, I speak soley on my opinion based on my faith.

First, I don’t buy evolution because there are still, in my opinion, too many holes that haven’t been answered. I do have a great respect for the scientific community. Sure there are many things in science that are fact, but to me, evolution is simply a bunch of theories, and there are many theories in it that the scientific community can’t even agree on.

Yes, I believe in creation and, just in the past year or so, have I come to settle on my belief in a 6-day creation. Up till that point, I still believed in creation, but thought that it may have taken millions or billions of years to have done it. But as a good friend of mine put it, I stopped thinking and started believing. Believing in what my faith tells me - that the Bible is true and inerrant (I know, that starts a whole new discussion) and if God said He did it in 6 days, my faith tells me that He did do it in 6 days.

Look, I’m not up on all the “evidence” either side has for evolution and creation. I know both sides say they have concrete evidence. What I rely on is my faith. If I’m wrong, so be it. It doesn’t change my outcome in the end. I’d rather err on the side of the Bible, based on my faith, than to err on the side of going against it.

I don’t deny anyone their opinion on either side of the debate, but don’t deny me my opinion either. I believe what I believe based on faith. Most of you here think I’m an ignorant fool, I knew that coming in here. But as I said, it’s my belief and whether I’m right or wrong on this issue doesn’t mean a hill of beans in the end other than if I’m right, I may have one more gem in my pile of treasures in heaven for sticking with God.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

40

MKM: You are right about one thing – in the end, it doesn’t matter if you, personally, believe in creation or evolution. I think most of us around here would agree with that.

The problem arises when people who believe in creation rather than evolution try to get their religious belief taught in schools, or try to interfere with genuine science being taught in schools. That is when the battles erupt.

“It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.”
– William Kingdon Clifford