David objected to my comparing the United States and Israel, but I think the comparison is valid in this sense–most Americans are nominal Christians and most Israeli citizens are Jews. I was not trying to imply that the U.S. is a Christian state in the same sense that Israel is a Jewish state. I was merely noting that it would be as impractical for the government to be open on a day that the overwhelming majority of workers would take off for either religious or family reasons. While it would not be practical to give everyone a day off for religious holidays for minorities (Yom Kippur in this countrty; Christmas in Israel), I think that Jews should be allowed to take off for Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashannah, and Passover without wasting vacation time. Jodi is correct that Lent is a more important time for Christians than Christmas, but I don’t think it’s necessary to take the day off those days. It’s not like Christmas or Passover, where it is a tradition to travel to visit family, or like the High Holy days where you are prohibited from doing any work. There’s plenty of time to go to service after work. Personally, I would rather work those days as it takes my mind off of food.
Jodih wrote:
Correct.
[quote]
Practically speaking, the problem with it is that the government would be effectively shut down on major holidays such as Christmas anyhow. I know you disagree with me here, and it’s a point that’s hardly worth arguing about since neither of us have any way to prove our position.
[quote]
Ah, but I have already said it is possible to take a look at those situations. Maybe there are some such agencies (I’ve already identified schools and the post office, for example), but why should a few incidents cause us to agree with an unConstitutional act?
And she could do nothing without others around? My secretary would love to have a day with none of us around. She could update the files, clean up the office, and get caught up on other things. Heck, sometimes she comes in on the weekend just to do those things because she can’t do them with all the rest of us around giving her more work.
And so how are holidays different? If you use them all up around Christmas, you can’t use them any other time – just like vacation days. Sorry, but that’s just not a logical argument.
We have people here who “hoard” vacation time so they can travel overseas. There was one guy who was gone for 6 weeks. As I said, your complaint is not a logical one.
[quote]
Philosophically, MY point, which YOU seem to be missing, is that I didn’t see – do not see – how it hurts non-Christians that everyone has Christmas off. You say Christians get their holiday off “free;” well, non-Christians get the day off free as well.
[quote]
Oh, I get your point – it’s just that, well, you’re wrong. Sorry. You seem to think that if everybody gets the day off, then it’s ok. Well, it’s not. Because those who are Christians are getting off their holy day while those who are not do not get their holy day off. If you can’t see the problem here, I doubt that my repeating it over and over again for you will help your comprehension.
Now follow along here. Labor Day is not a religious holiday. The First Amendment addresses religion. Get it?
So you’re saying it’s okay because it only favors Christians a little bit, not a lot? What a stellar argument.
Well, considering you ignored practically the entire message to which you were allegedly responding, you’ll just have to forgive me for coming to that conclusion.
But it wasn’t just a case of not addressing a point – it was a case of you saying there are only two alternatives, when you were responding to a message in which I proposed a third! It sure looked to me like you were ignoring it’s very existence completely.
“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi
Edward wrote:
Then how do you feel about the system I mentioned? That way each person can take off the days that are holy to him/her and not worry about the rest.
“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi
Because you still vastly underestimate the number of people who would be willing to work on December 25th. It would not be practical to keep the U.S. government open with the few number of workers willing to work Christmas any more than it would be practical for the Israeli government to stay open with the few number of messianic Jews (a.k.a. Christians) willing to work on Yom Kippur.
On a side note, Israel has bigger problems with synagogue/state divisions than the U.S. Do you know that in Israel a Jew cannot get married unless the ceremony is performed by an Orthodox rabbi. I read an article in the Washington Post about how many Israelis fly to Cyprus to get married and circumvent this law.
“Interested in fashion, Harmonica?”
“There were three dusters like these waiting for a train.
Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were
three bullets…”
–Once Upon A Time In The West
{{{Because you still vastly underestimate the number of people who would be willing to work on December 25th.}}}
Sorry, guys. The first time you make this mistake, I figure it’s a typing error or brain fart. The second time I figure you really mean your error. He’s not UNDERestimating the number of people willing to work on Christmas, in your opinion, he’s OVERestimating it.
Carry on.
I ain’t workin’ Christmas, by the way.
-Melin
I’m a woman phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That’s me
(Maya Angelou)
My apologies. I SHOULD have said overestimated. Thank you.
“Interested in fashion, Harmonica?”
“There were three dusters like these waiting for a train.
Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were
three bullets…”
–Once Upon A Time In The West
It’s been awhile since I worked in the business community, but I seem to recall that your general average business in the USA stayed open on one or more national holidays not connected to religion and the Federal and State workers got the national holidays as a day off.
Anyone care to comment as to which holidays their employer stays open with full staffing?
David, after thinking about it last night, I have to admit your proposal is fair to both Christians and non-religious. The only catch is whether you can rustle up enough willing workers to come in on December 25th to make it worthwhile.
Of course, during wartime or a national emergency, it becomes a moot point. I’m willing to bet that many civilian workers along with servicemen had to work on Christmas during World War II.
“Interested in fashion, Harmonica?”
“There were three dusters like these waiting for a train.
Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were
three bullets…”
–Once Upon A Time In The West
Edward said:
Thank you (didn’t mean to keep you up at night thinking about it). 
I would have to guess that the number of willing workers would at least in part depend on where you are. My office has some Jews, Muslims, Indians, etc. – enough that I think it would be worthwhile (the odd thing is that the town is really a white Roman Catholic town, but for some reason, there seem to be a higher concentration of these groups working for the state <shrug>).
I remember, as a child, going to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago on Christmas Day. That’s when my family would go every year, to avoid crowds. There were always plenty of staff – usually of the non-Christian variety, but some Christians worked it as well (I imagine they got some sort of overtime bonus).
Per your other message about Israeli church- state problems – I do indeed know about their problems. And one reason is because religion and government are so intertwined there. Thankfully, we have the First Amendment here.
“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi
If you’re Jewish or Buddhist or what have you, and your office closes for the day, you
get the day off too. I assume that you’re not objecting to everyone getting a day off, right? --Jodih
Sorry, Jodi, but you’re wrong. I am a Jew, and I resent like hell being forced to take Christmas off. Believe me, it’s not like a day off, because there’s nothing to do-- nothing is opened.
It wasn’t so bad when I was in New York-- Dec. 25 is a normal day in Crown Heights, but I was in Indiana for a couple of Christmases-- you know what you could do? Go to a Chinese restaurant. THAT’S IT.
You cannot go anywhere on Christmas Day without something reminding you that it is Christmas.
The last several years, I have made a point of working on Christmas. I usually spend the day with disabled people who need assistance throughout the day, and don’t have any family to be with.
Last year, I was with a Deaf-Blind autistic woman, who had no idea it was Christmas, and we had a lot of fun. But two years ago I was with a man with Down Syndrome whose mother had just died. He was missing her like hell. Staff had helped him put up a tree, and I did my best, but he was sad, and I was sad.
I do everything I can to make Christmas a regular day. It sure helps to be able to work.
–Rowan
If you’re Jewish or Buddhist or what have you, and your office closes for the day, you
get the day off too. I assume that you’re not objecting to everyone getting a day off, right? --Jodih
Sorry, Jodi, but you’re wrong. I am a Jew, and I resent like hell being forced to take Christmas off. Believe me, it’s not like a day off, because there’s nothing to do-- nothing is opened.
It wasn’t so bad when I was in New York-- Dec. 25 is a normal day in Crown Heights, but I was in Indiana for a couple of Christmases-- you know what you could do? Go to a Chinese restaurant. THAT’S IT.
You cannot go anywhere on Christmas Day without something reminding you that it is Christmas.
The last several years, I have made a point of working on Christmas. I usually spend the day with disabled people who need assistance throughout the day, and don’t have any family to be with.
Last year, I was with a Deaf-Blind autistic woman, who had no idea it was Christmas, and we had a lot of fun. But two years ago I was with a man with Down Syndrome whose mother had just died. He was missing her like hell. Staff had helped him put up a tree, and I did my best, but he was sad, and I was sad.
I do everything I can to make Christmas a regular day. It sure helps to be able to work.
–Rowan
Umm, I have no idea why that posted twice. Could it be my new mouse?
–Rowan
David B said:
“In the thread on prayer at graduation, this topic came up.”
Geesh David, you could at least credit me!
Contestant #3
Rivkah said:
Precisely (I was going to bring that up earlier, but it wasn’t a main part of my argument and I didn’t want Jodi to go off on a tangent with that and ignore what I was really getting at).
Oh, I don’t care so much about being “reminded” that it’s Christmas – people can celebrate whatever holiday they want. It’s just that the government shouldn’t be forcing us to work our schedules around their holy days.
“Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.”
– Neil Peart, RUSH, “Witch Hunt”
Rivkah is forgetting one thing that is open on Christmas and gets a lot of business from both Jews and goyim–the moviehouse. I always try to see a movie on Christmas although my family wonders why I don’t stay home. Even though it IS Christmas, I don’t want to hang around with the family all day.
“Interested in fashion, Harmonica?”
“There were three dusters like these waiting for a train.
Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were
three bullets…”
–Once Upon A Time In The West
Okay, a few comments…
Monty said:
Monty, typically it’s Columbus Day and Veteran’s Day. Depending on the location, it can also be MLK day.
jodih said:
Yes, but as a Christian, at least we get off one of the most important days. And typically people don’t need to take a day off for Ash Wednesday - they just need enough time to go to Mass. People of other faiths don’t get ANYTHING off. This thread is making me think - Christmas is the only religious holiday that is a federal holiday. Would it really be so bad/difficult to take it away and make people take a vacation day? I don’t think so - trust me, most people in the government take off the entire week before Christmas and the week after. One more day won’t make a difference.
Oh, and David? Great posts, and now a great quote in the sig line. Woohoo!
“There is such a fine line between stupid and clever.” – David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Falcon said to jodih:
I’ve tried to explain this to her several times over now. I only hope you have better luck than I. <sigh>
Would it really be so bad? No, I don’t think so. But I don’t kid myself into thinking it would be easy, either. A few years ago, somebody got it into their head that state employees here got too many days off, and that the legislature should take a few of the “minor” ones away. That didn’t go over very well and died quickly. I would think a brouhaha over Christmas would be even worse. That’s why I suggested the “mobile holiday” idea – nobody loses anything, it’s fair to everbody, and we go back to following the Constitution.
Thanks!
“Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.”
– Neil Peart, RUSH, “Witch Hunt”
In response to papabear’s earlier comment that prayer being taken out of the schools was a just and good thing, I agree. Back when there was prayer in schools, the students were so bad, bringing guns to school, shooting each other, forming gangs, taking crack… Yep things were a lot worse back then, all because of prayer.
This is exactly the kind of moronic, ill-informed statement made by idiots who don’t understand the idea of “cause and effect” for the sake of hearing their own voices. BTW, I defy you to defend your contention above that there were no gangs in schools in the 1950’s, or any decade prior.
The solution seems ridiculously simple…
Easy way: take the number of official “holidays” now given off above & beyond vacation. Then follow steps below after the “hard way.”
Or, the hard way: Add up the holidays for different creeds (i.e. Yom Kippur + Rosh Hashana + … for jews, Christmas + Good Friday + … for Catholics & Protestants that celebrate it, Christmas + Kwanzaa for Christian Blacks, Kwanzaa + some reasonable Ramadan allotment for Muslim Blacks, etc. for Buddhists, Hindus, etc. etc… Now average together the holidays as they’d be observed by different faiths (strictly e.g. Christian = 7, Jewish = 6, Muslim = 8, Avg. = 7).
Now give everyone that either the “easy” or “hard” (Depending on how anal you want to be) number of “holiday” days to use at their discretion (above & beyond vacation).
You want to use them for Christmas even though you’re Jewish? No prob. You want to work Christmas and take a longer summer holiday even though you’re Episcopalian, no sweat. It’s YOUR CHOICE when/how you observe “holidays.” Bam! Done.
PS - BTW, that’s what I call freedom of religion: It’s YOUR choice when/how to celebrate it.