My location was open last Dec. 26th, and our center manager urged us all to come in for productivity’s sake, since technicians generate revenue for the company. That’s not really necessary, because most of us techs are 100% commissioned employees, and we all usually work on Saturdays anyway (bigger pay check, ya know?). NOBODY showed up, and this place is a virtual United Nations as far as races & religions go.
Out of curiosity, I asked the guys in our billing dept (who are all pakistani) why they didn’t come in (they’re always here on Sat because it’s usually quiet & easy to get things done with no bosses around). They just said something to the effect of any excuse to take off is all we need. When I asked what the excuse was, one of them looked at me as if I had just asked permission to put my finger in his nose, & reminded me that Friday was Christmas.
Subsequently, the center manager has decided that the building will never again be open on (even minor) holiday weekends, since it costs $$ to light & heat the building, put a guard at the front door, and bring in hourly support staff who will have nothing to do if technicians don’t show up to generate work for them. (Hourly employees: when there’s nothing to do, that’s what they do.)
While there probably are some businesses that can justify the expense of opening with only a few employees, I suspect these are in the extreme minority. I agree that it’s not quite fair to force people to take a day off for holidays that they don’t personally observe, but from a purely business standpoint, it’s necessary. In government arenas, It might be a better idea to give employees floating holidays, according to Dr. Evil’s sinister plan.
I no longer work in a supermarket, but when I did there were a few holidays a year where the store was closed. Now because of competitive pressure, there is only one day a year where that store is closed–Christmas.
(Of course if you really needed to get something on Xmas but didn’t want to go to 7-11, there’s a Jewish bakery right next to grocery store…)
“Interested in fashion, Harmonica?”
“There were three dusters like these waiting for a train.
Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were
three bullets…”
–Once Upon A Time In The West
As was kindly pointed out in the last post, I failed to explicitly state that my plan was only intended for the civil service… It was, but I’m rethinking that.
Initially, I thought we could just address the gummint sector because, in the private sector (i.e. people who can get fired if they do crappy work and aren’t generally sucking our tax dollars off the governmental teat), this is treated as the non-issue it is and should be.
Then it occurred to me that what I’d really like to know is how many MILLIONS of our tax dollars have been spent studying, debating and analyzing this truly trivial issue at the local, county, state and national levels. That’s not to mention defending against the frivolous lawsuits of every nutbag who sees the end of our civilization in a creche on the lawn of the town hall.
Note: I’d use something other than a creche as an example, but the blunt fact of the matter is anything else (menorah, kwanzaa candelabra, dead chicken… choose the religious icon of your choice), is celebrated as a sign of “diversity” rather than a sign of the impending return of the inquisition…
This made me realize that I get a little tired of the double standard: anything christian (and to some extent, Jewish) is a horrid breach of “the separation of church & state” (try finding that phrase in the constitution, by the way!) while any OTHER religious/cultural symbology is a “healthy display” of multiculturalism/diversity. Puuulease.
All of a sudden, we’re dealing with a socio-cultural issue, rather than just the sep. of church and state. So, Come to think of it, let’s do this across the private sector too.
How? I say bag the whole thing. Let’s get smart like the Australians. Make the standard vacation allotment about 3x what it is now. Then we’ll do 'em one better and dispense with Holidays altogether. (Odds are it would come out to be not much more productivity loss than the holidays and less vacation)
You want time off to celebrate the birth of Christ or his being nailed up to a tree? You want to observe a harvest festival, a day of atonement or a period of fasting? Need a day to pass what you ate at passover? Need time to commune with your revered ancestors, or your sacred cow? You want some time to lay a really potent OogaBoogaJuJu curse on your neighbor – the one with the Dog that crapped in your azaleas? Or maybe you just need a few days to commune with your inner self? Well, now you got 5-6 weeks of vacation a year. Use it and quit bitching.
My guess is that it is somewhere very close to $0. Why study what won’t be changed?
So people who stand up to oppose breaches in the Constitution are “nutbags”?
Not by First Amendment defenders. They have fought against Menorahs and other religious objects as First Amendment violations just like creches.
Check out the thread I started (it’s probably nearer to the bottom of the list by now) on separation of church and state with “Ganesha & Quayle” also in the title. It talks about a church-state decision involving the Hindu religion, “worry dolls,” and an Earth Day altar (the judge ruled against all of these things, as well he should have).
Maybe you are talking about a socio-cultural thing, but I’m not, and neither are most First Amendment defenders. That is why I continue to say we need to deal with government, not the private sector.
Except for the “3x” figure, this is really no different than I proposed (and that you then essentially repeated in your previous message).
“Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.”
– Neil Peart, RUSH, “Witch Hunt”
Responding to Monty who asked about businesses that stay open on holidays, when I worked in our local grocery store we were open Christmas and Thanksgiving, too. To keep parents from screaming, we closed at 7, and each kid only worked a four hour shift. I think the idea was, it’s a holiday, people are cooking, they need the grocery store open. Of course we had maybe 3 customers all day.
How nice. I presented it as a question since I don’t have an actual answer… If you have a cite, I’d be most interested, but guesses are by nature just that. My guess is that it’s millions.
Nope. Just those who hypersensitively cheapen the sanctity of the constitution and the amendments by turning every minor thing that comes along into a constitutional issue rather than something to be resolved among mature, grown people in their own community.
‘Zat so. Amazing how lil’ ole you can apparently define “First Amendment defenders” as well as their outlook and actions. Frankly, I consider myself a first amendment defender by guarding against ridiculous and paltry issues being dragged up to the level of a “constitutional debate.” You certainly don’t speak for me or for my actions/preferences relating to the constitution.
You started a thread! Wow! How about starting one addressing the question I posed (which you studiously ignored) about where in the constitution/amendments it says anything about separation of church and state. Freedom of religion, yes. Church and state, no.
Yes I am talking about a socio-cultural thing, and you’re certainly welcome not to. As for the first amendment defenders, unless you’ve somehow got elected king of them (us), why don’t you quit speaking for them.
Sorry, didn’t realize you had a moratorium on ideas. However, as you yourself pointed out, there is one difference. I say it applies to everyone everywhere, not just civil service (could they take any more coffee breaks?) wonks.
One final question: How do you reconcile your “staunch” defense of the First Amendment (to such an extent that I find it inane) with your characterization of the courts holding Christmas to be a secular holiday as unacceptable? To put it another way, if you agree with it it’s constitutional and right, if you don’t, it’s silly and wrong? Is that it? There are parts of our constitution I strongly disagree with, yet I still support them ([unlimited] right to keep & bear arms, e.g.). Can you say the same Mr. Constitution?
As I said, it was a guess, and I gave my reasoning why. You would guess it’s millions? Bully for you. But you don’t even have any reasoning for your guess, so I would guess we’re at a standstill on that.
In response to my question if people who stand up to oppose breaches in the Constitution are “nutbags,” you said:
And, since you’re obviously an expert in this area, you can cite such cases in which the people didn’t try to work things out before filing suit, right?
I noted that First Amendment defenders have fought against Menorahs and other religious objects as First Amendment violations just like creches. You said:
What’s really amazing is that you are making an issue of the term. Somebody who defends the First Amendment is a First Amendment defender. Not too tough. I’m not defining anything other than the normal use of English. And since some of them have done exactly as I described, I’m not defining their outlook or actions, either – just describing what has occurred. What parts of this are you having problems understanding?
Next I suggested you “Check out the thread I started (it’s probably nearer to the bottom of the list by now) on separation of church and state with ‘Ganesha & Quayle’ also in the title. It talks about a church-state decision involving the Hindu religion, ‘worry dolls,’ and an Earth Day altar (the judge ruled against all of these things, as well he should have).” Your immature response was to say:
Are you sure you’re not Contestant #3 under a different name? I was giving you an identifier so you could look up the information. Obviously, you’re more interested in behaving like a child instead.
Actually, you asked no question. You made a statement. Since I know the statement to be true – that the phrase is not found in the Constitution itself (though, for the purposes of this discussion, what you said was essentially meaningless), there was nothing more to be said.
I then said: “Maybe you are talking about a socio-cultural thing, but I’m not, and neither are most First Amendment defenders. That is why I continue to say we need to deal with government, not the private sector.” You responded:
Again, I have not claimed to be speaking for anybody. I have described the actions of people who have defended the First Amendment. If you can show that First Amendment defenders ARE talking about a “socio-cultural thing,” then prove me wrong. Otherwise, stop acting like such a child.
I said: “Except for the “3x” figure, this is really no different than I proposed (and that you then essentially repeated in your previous message).” You responded:
Nobody said I did. However, I was merely pointing out that this was not really an idea that was new to this discussion.
I never said it was “silly,” though, yes, I do think it’s wrong. Believe it or not, the Supreme Court is made up of people, and people are sometimes wrong. It is my opinion that they are wrong in this case, and I have already explained my reasoning. You are free to disagree, of course, but if you do, it would be nice to see some reasoning from your side, not just more of your snide little remarks.
I cannot really think of anything in the Constitution that I “strongly disagree with” (other than parts that have already been amended, like those dealing with slavery and Prohibition). I used to have a bumper sticker ('til I sold the car it was on) that said, “Support the Bill of Rights.” People would come up to me and ask what it meant. They just couldn’t understand that I supported the entire Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment, Second Amendment, etc. Apparently, you are trying to imply the same thing without knowing anything about me. Not a very bright thing to do, but then you haven’t exactly been acting in an adult fashion. Perhaps it’s time you tried.
“Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.”
– Neil Peart, RUSH, “Witch Hunt”
Would this argument be moot if the name of the holiday was changed to something not religious?
Probably about the same thing you could do in Crown Heights on Yom Kippur. These are state recognized holidays we’re talking about and apply to government businesses so unless you were planning on going to the DMV or the library its not really applicable.