Christmas holidays & separation of church & state

[David_B]

I hate to sound like a jerk, but I really do wish everybody would go read the previous thread, since I’m pretty sure I responded to issues just like the ones you’re bringing up here. Anyway.

Manda said:

if Secular Beauracrat Joe wants to work on Xmas, then Xian Watchman Bob has to work on his (Bob’s) religious holiday to unlock the door.

Does he? While you “suspect” that this is true, it has not been my experience at all. The government agencies I’m aware of have ID card access or the like, so no guard is necessary. In fact, there are generally more guards when nobody’s around (nights, weekends, holidays) because, well, nobody else is around.

And please note that I’m not talking about private companies. I’m talking about government employees. Private companies should be able to do whatever they damned well please.

Melin said:

David, those same logistical reasons exist throughout government for the Christmas holidays.

Not at all. If you’re a teacher, and a large percentage of students aren’t there, it’s somewhat pointless to have class. If you’re a government engineer working on permits for landfills (or whatever) and a percentage of your coworkers aren’t there, you’re probably jumping for joy 'cus you can actually get some work done!

And it’s a bit disingenuous, isn’t it, to say that “oh well, the schools are closed for winter break then anyway.” I’m willing to make a wager that the reason winter break exists is because of the Christmas holiday.

Uh huh. Let’s see, they get 2-3 weeks off for a 1-day holiday? Sorry, Melin, don’t think so. It may have been one reason, but not the reason.

Libertarian said:

My man, if you don’t want to celibrate it, then don’t. I don’t.

Funny, that’s not the response I’d expect from a Libertarian. I’d expect a Libertarian to realize that this is a First Amendment violation and that the government should not be recognizing a specific religion’s holiday in this way.

Again, I encourage everybody to read that old thread. Among other things I discussed what I think the government should do that would be Constitutionally valid: Give each employee a certain number of personal holidays to use at their discretion. If they want to take off Christmas, they can. If they want to take off Yom Kippur, they can; if they want to take of Christmas, they can. Right now, a Jewish government employee has to use his/her own time to take off Yom Kippur, but is forced to take off the Christian holiday of Christmas. How anybody can consider that fair is beyond me…

[Falcon]

David…

I’ll wait until people read the thread to comment further, but FWIW, I agree with you. (As you probalby remember from the thread.) At my company, we get one holiday in December. It’s “officially” for Christmas, since we’re a government contractor. However, as long as you take the 8 hours of holiday time in December, no one really cares. It’s a good system…wish more companies did it.

---

“There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it.” - William James

[Liberal]

David:

I’d expect a Libertarian to realize that this is a First Amendment violation and that the government should not be recognizing a specific religion’s holiday in this way.

Oh. That’s different. Nevermind the first amendment. Government should be about the business of securing rights. I see what you mean now. Sorry about that.

Of course, Phil can explain to you why whatever the majority mob wants is good for you. [ducking…]

---

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

[pldennison]

Yeah, like that majority mob who all believe in a deity.

[Liberal]

Phil:

Exactly.

---

“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler

[Occam]

Common, nobody’s denying your First Amendment rights by giving other people a break. If you don’t like it, go to work on Dec 24th and 25th. I don’t recall it being, “…life, liberty and the pursuit of days off.” This ‘Athiest Inquisition’ is gettting out of hand. Next you guys are going to argue that Snow Days are a religious holiday for Loki.

[Gaudere]

Now, now, don’t get silly. No one would want snow days off for a holiday for Loki.

After all, everybody know the god of snow is Ullr.

[David_B]

Congratulations, Occam, on completely missing the point!

[PunditLisa]

The court, by not striking down Christmas as a federal holiday,is recognizing the fact that a great majority of the people in this country celebrate Christmas and will: 1) want the day off to spend time with their family; and 2) not be venturing out to their local government office to do their business that particular day.

To force government employees to work on Christmas day in order to wait on the 2 people that MAY want to come in would be a complete waste of our tax dollars. Closing down government offices simply makes sense.

If Mardi Gras were celebrated nationwide, no doubt IT would be a federal holiday. And it would have nothing to do with Lent.

BTW, why do you think government workers get Saturdays and Sundays off? Whoa boy!

[jab1]

The government could be open 7 days a week the same way that McDonald’s is open 7 days and 7-Eleven is open all week and Sears and Denny’s and so on and so on: You schedule it that way. You hire enough workers to fill all 56 hours and fix the schedule so that no one works more than forty hours a week.

The only reason we don’t is because of tradition and because it’s frankly easier to just have everyone come in 9-5 M-F.

As for religious holidays, simply give everyone 7 Free Days (Or some other number) and that they can take them on the holidays of their choice. The only restriction is that no two days can be used consecutively unless you can prove that your religion requires you to take more than one day and you can prove it with a letter from your Priest or Minister or Coven or Witch Doctor or…

And if most people take December 25 off, it’s because habits are hard to break.

---

>< DARWIN >
__L___L

[nebuli]

David,

I did read the thread on the link you provided before I first posted on this thread. However, I saw nothing to resolve the point I’ve been debating with you- namely, what is the definition of a religious holiday? You seem to feel that if its origin is religious, and some people still observe it as a religious event, then constitutionally it can only be considered a religious event.

On the other hand, it is my belief that if a significant number of other people observe it as a secular event, then it is a secular event.

I think PunditLisa’s example on Mardi Gras is right on target. Assuming for the sake of argument that there were absolutely no logistical problems associated with remaining open that day, would you consider it wrong for a government to declare Mardi Gras a holiday? It is definitely religious in origin, and I know lots of Christians who use Shrove Tuesday to prepare for Lent.

[jab1]

Oh, and I read that other “discussion.” Kinda degenerated into a lesson on how to use UBB Code, didn’t it?

---

>< DARWIN >
__L___L

[tracer]

nebuli wrote:

Pray tell, what do a jolly fat old elf imitating a chimneysweep, decorated conifer kindling, shop till you drop, and airborne caribou have to do with Christianity, or any religion?

Well, they definitely sound like the kind of things you’d see on a Peyote Vision Quest. (Especially the elf and the airborne caribou.) And Peyote Vision Quests are supposed to be religious expirences, aren’t they?

---

“Love 'em, fear 'em, and leave 'em alone.” – Dr. Spockiavelli

[Gr8Kat]

But nobody should force governmental workers to take it off as a holiday if they don’t want to.

As a governmental worker myself, I find it amusing that you assume we are “forced” to take a day off

“Not another holiday! And I so wanted to spend 8 precious hours of my life behind my desk! Agony, oh agony!”

---

“I hope life isn’t a big joke, because I don’t get it,” Jack Handy

The Kat House
Join the FSH Webring

[nebuli]

Tracer said:

Well, they definitely sound like the kind of things you’d see on a Peyote Vision Quest. (Especially the elf and the airborne caribou.) And Peyote Vision Quests are supposed to be religious expirences, aren’t they?

To be consistent, I will have to fight on this one too, because I know some who have gone on Peyote Vision Quests for more secular reasons

[David_B]

PunditLisa said:

The court, by not striking down Christmas as a federal holiday,is recognizing the fact that a great majority of the people in this country celebrate Christmas

Ah. So it’s ok to violate the First Amendment if “a great majority of the people in this country” think it’s a good idea, eh?

To force government employees to work on Christmas day in order to wait on the 2 people that MAY want to come in would be a complete waste of our tax dollars. Closing down government offices simply makes sense.

First, it would not be forcing government employees to work on Christmas. It would simply not be the government recognizing a religious holiday. We do it all the time now. Second, I (and others) have already explained how a simple use of personal holidays would mean people would certainly not be forced to work on that day if they don’t want to. Third, your estimate of the number of people who would work is rather underestimated, in my opinion. At my office, for example, we have a number of Jews, Indians, and Muslims who would likely come to work that day and take off another. Fourth, even if it is “only two,” as I have previously noted, it’s not like the office is going to disappear anyway. It’s there. The heat is on. The electricity is running. What’s the diff?

Nebuli said:

You seem to feel that if its origin is religious, and some people still observe it as a religious event, then constitutionally it can only be considered a religious event.

You make it sound like there are these few religious nuts who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. I don’t know where you are getting this idea, but almost every Christian I know still celebrates it as a religious holiday. Many go to church (in fact, for many it’s about the only time they go to church), etc. The fact that some others celebrate the present-giving aspect simply does not change the fact that it is a religious holiday for Christians.

I think PunditLisa’s example on Mardi Gras is right on target. Assuming for the sake of argument that there were absolutely no logistical problems associated with remaining open that day, would you consider it wrong for a government to declare Mardi Gras a holiday? It is definitely religious in origin, and I know lots of Christians who use Shrove Tuesday to prepare for Lent.

I can honestly say that I don’t know enough about Mardi Gras to answer that question. Pretty much all I know is that it’s a party. But the thing is, if the government were to use the suggestion I’ve brought forward here, it wouldn’t matter. People could take off that day if they wanted, or not. It would be up to them.
Gr8kat said:

As a governmental worker myself, I find it amusing that you assume we are “forced” to take a day off

I know you are at least partially joking, but I’ve already noted a suggestion that would not require government workers to lose any holidays – just being able to take them when they would like rather than when the Christian majority is deciding.

I mean, don’t you think a Jewish employee would rather take off Yom Kippur than Christmas?

[system]

I would like if you could take your “holiday” days off when the weather is really bad(snow,here).After all,who wants to be out on 6 degrees days anyway?

[David_B]

Maybe people who worship the cold.

Around here, we have inclement weather policy days – meaning you can take off your own time without previous approval on days when it’s really bad out. So under a system as I’ve described, you would be able to use a holiday then. Of course, you have to get to work to find out if such a day was declared…

[system]

So why Not an atheist holiday? David??

[David_B]

What would an atheist do on an atheist holiday? Nothing?