David, you forget that December 25 is a major religious holiday for virtually all members of a large demographic group with their own theology, ethics, accounts of miracles, and associated legends … who can prove the efficacy of their religion by objective evidence. I refer, of course, to Santaism.
Actually, your argument fails due to a logical fallacy regarding the relationship of religious belief and governmental action. Government is obliged neither to promote any one religion, any religion whatsoever, nor stand in the way of anyreligious practices which conform to a standard ethical code. I am not thrilled by that interpretation, but it seems to be the constitutional standard. If your religion calls for prayers at high noon, fine – you may do so, and government rules cannot stand in your way; if it calls for sacrificing a bullock in the village square on May Eve, get a permit to do so; if it calls for polygamy or taking LSD, sorry, Charlie – you’re out of luck.
Now, a parallel: government is absolutely prohibited from attempting to influence your vote by any direct means. It may not encourage you to vote for the Republican or Democratic candidate, or for or against any ballot proposition. By inference, your right to vote or not vote is also protected. Current law requires employers to give you time off needed to exercise your franchise if you would be unable to do so during non-work hours. By your standards, because some people choose not to vote, New York State would be prohibited from declaring Election Day a state holiday, which it does. Those who choose not to (take time off to) vote on that day would be entitled to take time off at their discretion.
Listen here Grinch (David B), I understand your point, I read all the posts and I still don’t agree.
Yeah, we could give everyone 8 private days off and schedule 56 hours a week and have people rotate days. We could do a lot so every American citizen can practice his god given right to be an ass and demand sanctuary down at the DMV on Chirstmas day. The government isn’t telling you or anyone else what to do. You can have a christmas tree, or don’t. You can put a pentagram on the floor for all they care. Having a government declared holiday simply means poeple don’t have to work on that day. It does not mean the government is forcing you to worship Chirst.
Boy oh boy, I was just talking about this with my wife in the car this morning. Why is it that anyone who chooses to criticize the Federally-recognized legal status of Christmas is labelled a “Grinch”? He isn’t trying to ban Christmas, to prevent you from celebrating it, or anything else. He (and I) simply think it should not be recognized as a legal holiday and so honored by shutting down all government services.
Quick question: What other religion, major or minor, also has holidays that are so honored as Federal, state and local legal holidays?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
David:what would an atheist do on an atheist holiday?
Well,maybe take some tracts around to churches about why they should convert to atheism!
read
think
have fun
what other religion gets holidays in America? How about “Americanism,” which gets July 4 off? Is Martin Luther King, Jr. Day a religious day? For some, yes (although I grant it’s tied in with Christianity). Labor Day had spiritual (not religious) elements once.
Do we really have holidays any more in the sense of “Holy Days?” Isn’t Christmas sort of just “It’s Jesus’ Birthday and everything is ON SALE!!!”
The day off to me is more efficacy than anything else. When I taught at Cornell, teachers and students didn’t have Labor Day off; secretaries, custodians, everyone else did. It was chaos, and stupid. Sometimes less that at least a quorum of a staff means that we might as well shut down.
BTW, I used to piss people off at another school where I taught by reminding them that paying for Christmas trees with public money violated the Constitution. They claimed that Christmas trees (Martin Luther’s pagan-appropirated symbol of the eternal life of Christians through Jesus Christ) wasn’t religious, and besides, they had a menorrah somewhere on campus, too.
Phil: In the U.S., principally founded by Christians, none. In numerous other countries, there are numerous examples of legal holidays tied to their major religion, or to one of their major religions where there are more than one. No, this does not answer your question, but it is apropos of it.
Simple question to you, then: Considering that the vast majority of Americans, including, I would presume, the majority of civil servants, celebrate Christmas as either the religious holiday it originally was or the secular Santa-and-presents holiday it has become in the last century, what is your objection to their having the day off as a paid holiday, not as an optional day but as a designated government-offices-are-closed day like Independence Day or Presidents Day? If it is simply that it was (and to some extent remains) a religious holiday, and you don’t believe in that religion, then you are proving precisely the point that you, Gaudere, and David have been at pains to deny. My thesis would be, when a majority wishes something that does not injure the rights of a minority, the {political unit} as a whole should conform to those wishes. When, of course, the rights of the minority are injured, then other processes should come into play, in particular optionality. I don’t see that as a problem here, unless you feel that you need to go pay your taxes, renew your driver’s license, or something on Dec. 25 and no other day, a necessity I feel you would have a hard time proving to a reasonable man.
There are a number of offensivenesses associated with Christmas. If you had, for example, complained of elementary school teachers teaching carols to children of atheists, I’d be backing your point. I don’t see a clear thesis behind how closing government offices for a generally celebrated holiday with Christian origin and trappings in any way injures atheists.
So, minus all the commentary, the answer was “none.” Thank you. That’s all the point I wanted to make. If you’re of a non-Christian religion and want to take time off to celebrate your holidays, you have to take it out of your personal/vacation time; if you’re Christian, you get a freebie. That’s all I wanted to know.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Well put, Phil, and very clearly. Yes, for Christians it’s a freebie. In some years, so many of the Jewish holidays fall out Mon-fri that I use up almost all my vacation days. Sure, I’d love to come in to the office on Christmas and Christmas Eve, and have a few extra days for myself. And on a few occasions, when I was working on big projects, I did do exactly that.
But I realize that there are practical realities to be dealt with. The hospital and police station need to be staffed on Christmas day, and if there aren’t enough Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc, around to cover the requirements, then tough luck, but some Christian is gonna have to leave his family and come in to work. And similarly, there are many offices which have zero contact with the public, and truly do not need to be open every single day. If 95% of the employees want to stay home on Christmas, then it is an unfair imposition that they should require the security staff and supervisory staff to show up just because it’s not my holiday.
First, I’d just like to say that I’m not going to bother to reply to the few people who said things to me recently because Phil already said exactly what I would have said. We could work as a tag team on this issue.
Second, it turns out that there was actually a recent lawsuit on this very issue (I figured people had given up long ago on trying to get the courts to see reason on this issue). You can read about the judge’s rhyming verdict at: http://cnn.com/1999/US/12/07/fringe/christmas.lawsuit.ap/index.html
As you can see there, the judge completely missed the point, as several people have here. It’s not that there is something inherently wrong with giving goverment employees a day off; it’s that Christians are given preferential treatment. As Phil said, anybody of any other religion needs to use their own vacation day (or the like), but Christians are privileged, it seems.
To add to my rant, I wanted to relay a story to you about growing up non-Christian in a Christmas world. My 3 1/2-year-old son goes to a park district child-and-parent class. They focus on Christmas for the last two classes of this “semester,” with Santa coming the last day. The teachers are very nice and acknowledge other holidays, wishing the few Jewish kids a “Happy Hanukkah” and the like, and I’m sure they mean well, but like some of the people around here, they are Christians in a Christian world with a Christian mindset. They simply don’t understand how it is for a child who knows Santa will not be visiting his house and who does not celebrate Christmas. I have heard from several Jewish parents whose children have been upset because they felt left out. Then, last week, my wife and son went to the class. They came home early and I asked why. My wife informed me that my 3 1/2-year-old son wanted to leave because it was all Christmas and he felt out of place.
To anybody who says that Christmas is just a secular holiday, to anybody who says it’s no big deal, to the stupid judge mentioned above who thinks Santa is a great lark and everybody is better for having Christmas, I would have wanted them to see my child’s face when he told my wife that he wanted to go home from a place he normally loves to be at. And I would have had two words for them at that point (though out of earshot of my son) – “Fuck you.”
I already addressed this above – you may have missed it. Please allow me to requote myself:
The government agencies I’m aware of have ID card access or the like, so no guard is necessary. In fact, there are generally more guards when nobody’s around (nights, weekends, holidays) because, well, nobody else is around.
I enjoyed reading the banter here. So interesting to see whom took what side - guess Christmas makes strange bed-fellows.
The most compeling argument to this debate is that the mainstream populace has assimilated Christmas into a “secular holiday,” and seeing how often a huge corporation would spend billions to associate itself with Santa, but would never do so (publicly) with Jesus Christ is telling.
It should also be noted that a bunch of our founding fathers found the very idea of “National Holidays” to be a reminder of the types of leadership/government they were trying to break free from. I believe Thomas Jefferson in particular found them to be a “monarchial practice,” so if we start to look at what THEY said (like we try and so with other issues such as Separation of Church & State and Gun Control), we come up with ALL holidays endorsed and sanctioned by the government is bad.
Well, all you government folks, you’re all going to have to go work on January 1, folks. Yep, sorry to tell you so, but it’s been a holy day – indeed, a holyday of obligation for Catholics (in honor of Mary, no less!) – for hundreds or thousands of years, and since that means that everyone who takes the day off is observing that Christian holiday, giving it to you as a paid holiday at the taxpayers’ expense is just a no-no. Otherwise, you are honoring the “ancient Roman Feast of St. Mary [which] was restored to January 1.” http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/idxref/3/0,5716,7813,00.html
What’s that? You think it’s a secular event, just means football and parades and the start of a new year? Well silly, New Year’s is and almost always has been a day of religious significance for many different peoples and cultures. See what the Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about it here: http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,56914+1,00.html . So I guess that means you have to go to work. Can’t have you honoring a day that has religious significance to so many people, even if it has none for you.
Cancel the caterer, turn in the football and parade tickets for a refund, and put away the champagne; we expect to see you down at the DMV bright and early January 1.
David, you REALLY think that the winter school holiday “just happens” to come at Christmas and New Year’s? Absolutely no connection between the two, eh? You wanna make any bets on that?
No, Melin, I never said it’s just a coincidence. The point, however, is that it’s a 2-3 week break from school. Linking that directly to a 1-day holiday would be a bit difficult. Whether Christmas is there or not, it is a reasonable stopping point for the semester (meaning it comes pretty darned smack in the middle of the school year). In college, for example, we had our finals before winter break.
By the way, nice straw man there. Of course, you’re missing the main point (apparently on purpose). I’ve already explained it so many times I grow tired of doing so again. So feel free to reread what has already been said. Phil did the best job of explaining it. Here, I’ll even requote it for you:
Another reason to just have the government give “personal holidays” to workers, to take off whenever they feel it is most appropriate to their beliefs.
I always giggle when some churchy type gets his/her panties all in a bunch over the “decline of Christmas morals into commercialism” and how “we’ve lost sight of the true meaning of Christmas.”
Never mind that the True Meaning of Christmas is the Sol Invictus at the height of the Staurnalia festival.
Never mind that the church itself once forbade Christians from celebrating Christmas several centuries ago, because of all the revelry and carousing associated with the holiday. (I guess those medieval people celebrated New Year’s Eve a week early!)
Which all makes it a weensy bit hard for me to see Christmas as a decidedly religious holiday. It’s a day of pine trees wrapped in dangerous electrical wires, of egg nog, of the second annual turkey dinner, of a-capella chamber music, of a red-clad bowl full of jelly and his eight supersonic reindeer, and most importantly of kids (who can’t earn their own money yet) getting radio-controlled toys wrapped in red-and-green paper. And speaking of which, where’s that Evel Kinevel motorcycle jump set I wanted when I was 8?!
“Love 'em, fear 'em, and leave 'em alone.” – Dr. Spockiavelli
New Year’s Day is a religious holiday not only for Catholics (and I KNOW there are those of you out there who doubt that we are Christian ;)), but for many other religions as well. The secular world has co-opted New Year’s Day, just as it has co-opted Christmas. If you are going to be consistent, then you are going to have to say that New Year’s Day should not be a paid holiday, either. No straw man there at all.
Regarding Christmas,the Puritans forbade celebration of it due to its highly pagan roots. Secular society – and the influence of other Christians with more ties to pagan history than they knew – has made Christmas a much bigger holiday than it originally was.
And blame Coca-Cola for Santa Claus as we know him today. St. Nick’s feast day is December 6.
Oh, for . . . the fact that New Years Day and the Feast of St. Mary both fall on Jan. 1 is no more significant than the fact that I was born on Thanksgiving Day, 1969. I mean, really.
Fact is, I’ve worked plenty of Jan. 1s in my life, especially when I worked retail. It isn’t a paid holiday for everyone.
Melin, it seems like you’re simultaneously trying to make nonreligious holidays (Jan. 1) religious, and make religious holidays (Christmas) nonreligious, in order to apologize for the fact that Jews and Muslims don’t get their holidays off for free. You want to make a choice, here? Which is it? Is New Years religious, or is Christmas nonreligious?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
David B., for someone who tries to be so logical about this issue, I think you are reacting based on emotions. I’m sorry about your son feeling left out. I truly am. Just as my heart breaks when the little child down the street with cystic fibrosis can’t play baseball with the other kids.
What good does anger do, though?
I don’t know what the answer is for you, except to say that adversity builds character. You realized that you’d have these issues when you chose to have children. Being in the minority is never easy. Perhaps you get a little sense what it is like to be a black child in America today.
But it seems to me that you are looking to the government to insulate you from people who make your son (and you)feel “different.” And I must opine that forcing government offices to stay open on Dec. 25th will do little to change how your son feels at Christmas time. All it would do is cause millions of people in the United States to be angry and upset.
I’m going to contest the “strawmen” designation that pldennison gave to my argument that July 4 is a religious holdiay.
Americanists may not call what they do a religion but they:
Worship an idol (pledging allegiance to it, putting it in houses of other worship)–no other idol may be put above it, it must be ritually destroyed if damaged (purification via burning), and was repeatedly referred to as “sacred” during debates on making its desecration a violation of the Constitution.
Worship the country–it is “God’s experiment,” the “shining city on the hill,” and it’s members are the new “Chosen People.”
Have hymns–we must sing the hymn of our nation (which honors the idol) even before sporting events. hats are to be taken off and an oath of fealty made by placing the hand over the heart. Those who don’t wish to participate, even if non-believers (a Denver Nugget a few years back) are labelled as “blasphemous”–I am not making this up.
We have a “Day of the Dead”–two of them, really, Veteran’s Day and Memorial Day. These exist solely to extoll the virtues of martyrs to Americanism. We sometimes get vacation for Columbus Day, to honor a guy who didn’t discover this blessed land.
I’m not saying that it flies above the radar, but I have known a lot of people who worship America more than they worship any deity (or who would claim that God is an American–maybe he’s Uncle Sam?).
If Wicca is a faith system, if animsim is a faith system, if atheism is a [non]faith system, how is Americanism not?
As to MLK Jr.'s birth being religious, I have African-American friends who would tell you about that.
