So, if we change the day that we recognize that the Earth has returned to the same point in its orbit to, say, June 21, when the North Pole is as pointed towards the sun as it’s going to get; or to May 14, or Oct 4, or any other date, and it happens to be the same day as a saint’s feast day, does that make that day a religious day, too?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
You aren’t getting it, Phil. The POPE changed the date of the calendar, and changed the start date as indicated to a religious holyday.
Your argument simply proves my point. We can just as easily say that we chose to give a winter holiday at or around a calendar point that marks the natural phenomenon of the winter solstice. The date also happens to be (or to have become) a Christian holiday. Winter holidays and celebrations at or around the time of the solstice are a long-standing tradition across cultures and religions. Because it also happens to be a Christian holiday, should the government not be permitted to observe it?
And what about Thanksgiving, for, oh, say, the third time?
(At least you’re still here! 
David seems to have picked up his marbles and gone home!)
-Melin
tracer posted the following link:
Thanks tracer. It looks like I stand corrected about nobody meaning it literally. However, it still seems to me that what the essay is describing is not a religion but a secular idealogy attempting to substitute for a common religion.
First, let me apologize to Melin for daring to not explain the details of my life to her and mention ahead of time that I would be away for all of one day (yesterday). If I had known she would be so concerned as to mention it no less than twice in that one day, I certainly would have explained to her that my father, who is retiring next week, had a party that I went to in order to surprise him (since I live out of town from him). Now, I didn’t realize that I had to justify my one day of absence, but since Melin decided that I was “avoiding” her comments (9:12 AM yesterday) and also that I had “picked up [my] marbles and gone home” (7:25 PM yesterday), she is obviously very concerned about my personal life. So I promise, from now on, if I dare to be busy for a whole day, I will notify Melin ahead of time. (Of course, this also ignores the fact that I did address Melin’s point about Jan. 1 by noting it was a straw man. Phil made the same point and has continued to explain while I was gone.)
That aside, I’m kind of glad I was gone. Phil did an excellent job saying pretty much what I would say, and he, rather than I, got to deal with the frustration of arguing with people who just don’t get it. It’s still unbelievable to me that Christians can sit there and claim that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. It really does blow my mind.
Anyway, PunditLisa said:
I’m glad you wrote this – not because I am acting the way you said, but because I wasn’t sure if anybody actually saw that message, which was the last one on the first page, and which I followed almost immediately with what became the first post on this page. But on to your point. The only reason I posted that was to counter those who claim Christmas is not a Christian holiday. I was not trying to use my son’s experience in any way to relate directly to the government giving holidays, just to point out how utterly ridiculous that claim is about Christmas. But, I suppose if they didn’t get it before the example, they aren’t going to get it afterwards. 
< sigh > No, Lisa, that is not it at all. I want my son to understand how many differences there are among people! My neighborhood, for example, is a perfect situation for this. Next door is an interracial couple. Across the street is a Sikh Muslim Indian married to a Catholic whose father is Jewish. Etc. I enjoy the fact that we have so much diversity around and my son is learning about how different people have different beliefs. What I don’t enjoy is having some of these people force their religious beliefs on him to make him feel uncomfortable when he should be enjoying himself. There is quite a big difference. And that certainly has nothing to do with the government holidays.
Jesus H. Christ – did you even read my messages in this thread? How many times do I have to repeat myself? I am not – do you understand? NOT – trying to force Christians to come to work on Christmas. I have suggested alternatives that would work just fine and not be a First Amendment violation. Why have you ignored these?
No, the reaction I’m after is understanding. Apparently, you’re missing that…
Satan said:
Sorry – I thought it was obvious to anybody who had been following the conversation that I was just quoting a quick line. I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying that directly (as opposed to paraphrasing somebody else). In any event, there was an implied in that message that may not have poked its head thru.
Keeves said:
Um, actually, having an ID that lets you in pretty much could let you in any time. I know that’s the way it works where I work. I could go in to work in the middle of the night (and have on a few occasions), without ever seeing a guard. I could do whatever I wanted while I was there.
Like I said, I’m sure they could do the same thing any other time. And it should be noted that most ID card systems that I’m aware of keep track of whose ID was used. So if only a few people showed up on Christmas and the boss’s computer got trashed… As far as sleeping, etc., well, if the boss distrusts his employee that much, well, it’s a sad situation. But the same could be said about a lot of things. Many (all?) federal offices, for example, offer four-day work weeks. They can work long days for 4 days and then get the 5th off. During those long days, they are unsupervised for several hours each day (effectively adding up to that 5th day), when they could do any of the things you mention. All in all, I don’t find that argument terribly compelling.
As I believe noted in the previous thread (and one of the reasons I encouraged people to read it), I would understand why jobs like that would have to be looked at differently. But that is the exception, not the rule.
< gasp! > But, you could be sleeping during that late time! You could be snooping through the desks of other employees, or worse! You’re unsupervised during that time! How can you even suggest such a thing?!
Which is not comparable to what I’ve said here, for the reasons I’ve already explained.
But, tell me, Keeves, don’t you find it just a little unfair that you have to use your personal time to take of Yom Kippur (not to mention Rosh Hashanna, etc.) while the Christians get Christmas off?
**Phil<
Incidentally, more on the topic of my 3 1/2-year-old son (and not directly related to this topic except as I’ve already noted). He also goes to a park district pre-school. A couple weeks ago, the teacher pulled my wife and the mother of a Muslim boy aside after class to tell them that the classes were doing a “holiday” program (read: Christmas) and they could either allow our sons to participate or have them sit down with the parents during the program (which is today). What were we, the parents, supposed to do? Tell our small children that they can’t sing songs with their friends? Would they understand such a thing or view it as punishment? To make matters worse, the projects these past couple weeks have all been Christmas-related. A wreath. A Christmas ornament. Santa’s hat. Etc.
Oh, but Christmas is for everyone!
Bullshit.
Melin:
I don’t celebrate Thanksgiving, but I can see how it can be celebrated nonreligiously, as well as without fealty to any particular religion.
If the country moved the celebration of our “secular winter holiday” to Dec. 21 to coincide with the actual date at which the Northern Hemisphere is tilted as far from the sun as it’s going to get, do you think Christians would raise a great hue and cry about it? I suspect they would.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Okay, Dave,if you were the pre-school teacher, how would you handle the situation? Pretend that Christmas didn’t exist? Spend one day studying each religion?
Don’t criticize until you can offer a better alternative.
You’re one to talk, Lisa – you criticize without even apparently bothering to read what had been said previously!
But that aside, I do have a better solution (contrary to your apparent assumption that I don’t). Either teach about all the different winter holidays (either all the “major” ones, like Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, and Ramadan, or about all the ones children in the class celebrate) or don’t teach them at all. I mean, Christian kids are going to do Christmas at home and/or church anyway, and that is where religion belongs – in the home and church.
But in any event, if you want to discuss this further, we should probably break it off into a new thread.
In my sons school,its all about xmas right now.They are practicing singing for the show,made an angel for the top of the tree,etc. I’d rather they work on adding,subtracting,etc!
BTW,I once saw a “xmas” card that had santa nailed to a cross! 
David B — Yes, I can see your point very well about how an ID lets people in whenever they want, and they can do whatever they want at those times. Well put, and I concede that in most cases people should be able to come in an do real work on Christmas etc. We agree that this would not apply to situations where the employees are dependent on each other.
Yes, definitely. And I mentioned it in my post of 4:09pm 12/14. But 100% fairness is difficult to acheive, and I believe that the current system is one attempt at minimizing the unfairness.
For example, let’s take an office which is currently closed on Christmas. They consider changing to the following policy: “We will now be officially open on Christmas. We are also giving everyone a flexible holiday which they can use on Dec 25 or at any other time that they want.” I think that although there will be some people who will use this new policy to their advantage, most of them would have been satisfied to continue under the old system, and the new system might invite more trouble that it’s worth. There may be issues such as paying the heating bill for the two employees who show up, for example, when the bouilding could have been left unheated. (I don’t know about the winter, but the building managment charges my company $40 per weekend day, if we want air conditioning on a Saturday or Sunday in the summer.) There will also be people who start asking to work on Thanksgiving, New Years, Labor Day, et al. I’m not saying this is unjustified, but that many Jews, atheists, and others, do not mind being told to take a day off on 12/25, and although you do mind, it just might not be worth the headache to the office management.
But everything I’ve written so far relates purely to the question of working or not working. In that regard, I do not feel that it constitutes government involvement in the Christian religion. It is simply an acknowledgement that most people would prefer to not work, and so the office will stay closed. Observance of any kind is another matter entirely.
I remember the “holiday” programs in school when I grew up, and I am totally opposed to it. The holidays can be mentioned, or even studied, in Social Studies class, but anytrhing beyond that is totally out of place in a public school, and I fully agree with your comments on that.
Sorry David, but when you are jumping in responding to people’s posts almost immediately after they appear, and then all of a sudden disappear for a while without explanation, it makes it look like you’ve just left.
My, aren’t we pissy about it? Can’t have a civil discussion without getting all defensive about it?
Phil, it’s nice that you can celebrate Thanksgiving without reference to God. I’m sure a lot of people can and do celebrate the winter holiday the same way. Thanksgiving is more directly linked to God historically, since we know that December 25 was not, in fact, the actual date of Jesus’ birth.
and
There’s nothing pagan, nothing pre-historical, nothing non-Christian about the origins of Thanksgiving. It was initiated to give thanks to God, and specifically to give thanks to the Christian god. You say thta it has evolved to the point in your life where you don’t celebrate it, and that you see ways it could be celebrated without religious motivation. That’s a great rationalization, and I submit the same argument can be made for Christmas.
And you have begged the question, which again David has ignored – should we do away with Thanksgiving as a government holiday, too? As demonstrated, it’s a much more Christian holiday than Christmas is.
-Melin
(who will likely be in a courtroom from 1:00 on today)
Thanks for letting us know where you’ll be, Melin. Wouldn’t want to accidentally think you were here but not responding. Maybe we should all post our calendars. Because obviously if we were posting and then stopped, that can’t mean we were away from the computer or got busy. It must mean we decided to drop out of the conversation.
Anyway, regarding your whole Thanksgiving complaint, I have nothing against removing it as a government holiday as well. Indeed, my whole suggestion would include getting rid of all official government holidays for employees and letting them use those holiday days when they feel it most appropriate. Does Thanksgiving have religious origins? Probably. But Christmas doesn’t just have religious origins, it is still a Christian holiday. This is a point that some folks here just don’t seem to get. I just don’t understand the mentality that says Christmas is not a Christian holiday.
Keeves said:
I can only talk about that which I’m familiar with. But for every state and federal office that I’m aware of (between knowing and/or working at some, having friends that work at others, etc.), they are air conditioned or heated anyway. In most cases, there are guards around (as I’ve noted earlier), and you can’t just let the guards freeze or overheat. In other cases, there is always the possibility (indeed, probability) that somebody will come in late at night and over the weekend to work. Also, leaving the heat off brings on the possibility of frozen pipes. All in all, it just isn’t going to really change.
Maybe they don’t mind. But that doesn’t make it any less a First Amendment violation. Besides, I am sure those Jews and atheists and Muslims and whoever else would mind even less if they had the option to take off a different day instead.
I disagree with your first statement. I don’t think it’s just an acknowledgement – it is, indeed, observance of a religious holiday. And that is precisely why I think it is wrong.
Nobody said it isn’t a Christian holiday. What has been said is that it is not exclusively a Christian holiday. Maybe you should go do some historical research and get your facts straight before you start taking positions that are easily disputed with facts.
Nice of you to acknowledge that Thanksgiving “probably” has religious origins. Haven’t seen you get so riled up about it. I take it you don’t let your kid celebrate that holiday either, given its Christian origins?
Oh, and David? Pull the corncob out of your ass. Not only is it making you walk funny, it’s affecting your posting, too.
-Melin
Phil:
I wouldn’t.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
David,
You said:
Merely reiterating that an opponent’s counter-argument is a strawman does not advance the discussion. Why do you think it is a strawman? Melin had drawn attention to the fact that the same standards and logic you were using to declare that official recognition of Christmas was impermissible would make recognition of New Year’s impermissible also. At least Phil responded by stating the reasons he did not the cases were comparable. However, since his case omitted to consider a key piece of evidence the question is still open.
For a really outrageous example of a strawman refer to your statement that it is unbelievable to you that Christians can sit there and claim that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. The reason that statement is a strawman is because, as far as I can see, nobodyhas made such a ridiculous statement in this thread. What some of us have maintained is that Christmas is not solelya Christian religious holiday.
By “solely” I mean not only that some nonChristians celebrate it (which as you correctly point out is only a small number in relation to the Christians who celebrate it) but more importantly that there are very significant portions of the Christmas celebrations which have nothing to do with Christianity. Name one Christian denomination whose creed is that Santa comes down the chimney to deliver toys to all good little girls and boys? These portions are part of a cultural celebration which predates Christianity, and is independant of religious significance. The fact that the vast majority of those who still practice them today are Christians is because of the historical coincidence that their ancestors had been converted to Christianity.
The key issue for me was framed perfectly by Phil when he asked if this nation would still be celebrating a holiday on Dec. 25 if Christianity had not existed. I have already given my reasons in prior posts for believing that the answer is Yes. So if you want to convince of your position either:
a- show me more compelling evidence to support a “No” answer to the question; or
b- convince me that this is not a significant question
But please don’t keep taking our position and by deleting a few key words change it into an obvious absurdity.
You had said that it really blew your mind that somebody could hold our position. Sometimes that feeling is Nature’s way of hinting that one should re-examine what the opposition is truly saying, or re-examine one’s own starting assumptions.
Just out of curiousity, Melin, why is it any of your business what holidays David “lets his kid” participate in? The only kids whose holidays you need to be concerned about are yours. And I bet if your children’s school decided to start actually celebrating Samhain on Oct. 31 you’d be in the principal’s office so fast people’s heads would spin.
If Christmas is not exclusively a Christian holiday, let’s rename it Solstice and move it back to Dec. 21. Everyone OK with that?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Saint Nicholas predates Christianity? Color me surprised.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Melin said:
And I’ve already gone over that, not that you’d pay attention. Here is what I said a couple days ago:
I’m sure you’ll still respond and ignore this. And if you do so, you’ll forgive me this time if I do actually ignore you. I see no point to continue posting the same information when you ignore it repeatedly.
You haven’t disputed a single thing I’ve said “with facts.” Maybe in your imagination you have, but not here in reality. Instead, you’ve pulled out straw men and ignored what Phil and I have said.
We celebrate it as a secular holiday, which it really is. While it was “declared” by some folks to be religious, that doesn’t really mean a whole lot. Christmas is part and parcel of Christianity. Thanksgiving is not. If you can’t see the difference then there is little point in continuing to try to explain it to you (I suspect there is little point in that anyway). I also have to take issue with the way you phrased it, about letting my kid participate. I would like to know if you meant it the way it sounds to me (like I’m prohibiting my son from participating in Christmas, as if this is a bad thing) or it was just a poor choice of words on your part.
That’s a good one! Because I point out how you ignorantly implied I was doing things that I wasn’t, I have a corncob up my ass.
Well, tell ya what. I’ll pull out the corncob from my ass when you pull your head out of yours.
– Hugs & Kisses, David
Wow! Lots of posts while I was composing that one.
Anyway, yes, Nebuli, the way I said it did make it sound a bit worse than it actually is. But I still think there is some validity. For example, Hannukah is a Jewish holiday. If anybody claimed it was not solely a Jewish holiday, because, for example, lots of people light candles in December, I’d think they were nuts. To me, saying something is not “solely” a XXXXX holiday is effectively saying it really isn’t a XXXXX holiday. Why? Because it obviously has some importance and significance to the XXXXX religion.
I see that I’m still not wording this very well. Suffice it to say that, yes, I meant effectively what you said, though I still do think it goes further than that.
You also said:
I think it’s a bit insulting for you to imply that I hadn’t already examined and re-examined this situation, but I’ll ignore that for the moment. Instead, what it tells me is that so many people take their position as the majority religion in this country for granted that they can’t even conceive of it any other way. I don’t think I’ve seen Slythe in this thread, but I’ve seen him post other messages about growing up as an atheist, and it’s not pretty. I grew up Jewish in an area with lots of Jews. I did not feel terribly out of place then, because they made efforts (in school, for example) to make sure we weren’t made to feel that way. It’s not happening that way where I live now (see the other thread I started on the topic of Christmas in the Schools). While the schools thing is somewhat different, they are somewhat linked as well. I think much of this whole “take off Christmas” feeling is because it would simply be ridiculous to many people to even consider not having Christmas off. Around here, many people are surprised every year when we don’t get Good Friday off, even though we never have (it’s so ingrained into them that they just forget we don’t have it off). A lot of the resistance seems to take the form of rationalizing, with some straw men thrown in. Phil has done an excellent job of cutting through that.
The fact remains that Christians get one of their holiest days recognized by the government while not other religion (and heaven forbid nonreligious people) get the same recognition. That is a First Amendment violation, pure and simple.