Incidentally, another problem is the assertion that most people won’t show up. Maybe most won’t. I don’t know. But if so many people view Christmas as a supposedly secular holiday, why should they take it off if they don’t have anywhere in particular to go? And there are others who may celebrate Christmas Eve. Or other times (for example, my boss celebrates Christmas at Thanksgiving with his 10 kids, many of whom are spread out across the state and some of whom are now married).
I’m not saying with certainty that folks will show up, because there is no way to know – it’s never been tried.
Actually, I have, but apparently I missed the details. Thanks for repeating them.
Well, in my experience in big companies (and maybe its wrong to equate government work with work at a large buisness), you can’t do squat without other people there. At one company I worked for, if you wanted to get in on the weekend, not only did you have to drive around looking for a security guard to let you in the building and your office, but the freakin’ lights wouldn’t come on, cause they were programmed for regular work hours. (this is not to argue how computerized lighting systems are a problem per se, but just that there are many problems with only a small fraction of the workforce being present)
Now, the work I did was independent of other people, but anyone in like sales, or management, or marketing probably wouldn’t have been able to accomplish anything.
Anyway, anecdotal evidence about how much work would get done aside; I agree that the current system is unfair and probably unconstitutional, and that your system is generally better. My concern is that your system may end up being unfair towards christians. You mentioned that the post offices and schools would probably need to be closed on xmas (and Kepi says even more than that). The ones taking xmas off would use their holiday time, and those employees who wanted to work that day wouldn’t be able to work, and would likely get a free paid vacation day.
Admittedly, giving minority religions an extra vacation day isn’t gonna keep me up at night, but it is still unfair…
If more than 15% of the school is going to be out due to the flu, the school board cancels classes. Anyone have a problem with that? Makes sense, doesn’t it?
In that vain, how about if we change the law to include something along these lines: If more than 50% of businesses will close on a particular day, the federal governmental offices will also close."
That makes it a fiscal issue, not a religious one.
Sorry, Lisa, but schools are a way different case than offices. Schools are probably the very best example of where the various workers and customers are dependent on each other, and I can easily see why as few as 15% are enough to cripple the system.
In contrast, if you’ll read David’s recent posts, you’ll see that in many offices, especially David’s, efficiency (of those present) goes up in proportion to the number of people who are absent.
I kind of resent that. Just because I don’t go to midnight Mass or carolling in front of a nativity scene doesn’t mean I don’t have anywhere in particular to go. The place in particular I’d like to go is visiting my family, exchanging gifts, spreading good cheer, etc. etc. In case it wasn’t obvious from my previous posts Christmas is one of my favorite holidays.
But your attitude has served to enlighten me about what will happen in the scenario Kepi painted. The nonbelievers who would like that holiday off will be under a lot of pressure to come in and work so one of the Christians can get it off instead, “because it doesn’t mean as much to a nonChristian”.
Actually, I’ve worked in a government office before. Have you? I was the City Clerk for a municipality in Ohio for 3 years. I handled plumbing permits, building permits, special garbage pick-ups, etc.,etc. I didn’t have an assistant. It was just me. There was also 1 tax clerk, 1 water clerk, and 1 auditor.
We could have all showed up on Christmas Day (or New Year’s Day, or Thanksgiving), and twiddled our thumbs all day. We would have missed out on a special day with our family, for what? Because if no one, or very few people, are going to show up to do business, for WHATEVER REASON, it’s a waste of money to staff the office.
There was nothing to resent there. I didn’t say you had nowhere to go. I said those people who don’t may come in to work. I didn’t say or imply that the only place to go was church. Some go to see family. Some go nowhere. It was just a general statement that those who don’t go anywhere may wish to come to work.
I doubt it. Frankly, though, I doubt it would take much pressure. In talking to the various people of non-Christian religions (or no religion) where I work, none has indicated any problem with coming in on Christmas if it meant they would get a different day of their choosing off instead.
PunditLisa said:
Yes. 8 years.
I really do wish you would read the messages before replying. It seems to be a habit of yours to bring up something as if it had never been discussed when, in fact, it already has been.
Most government offices do allow flex time. So why don’t you just come in to work on Christmas and take off on your preferred day?
Why do you imagine that a minority of people would even be able to initate a change of such magnitude as eliminating Christmas Holidays?
Heck, I’ve worked in places where the real reason for taking off for Thanksgiving and Christmas was to go deer hunting
We could have closed down for two weeks of deer season and made everyone happy except me!
Frankly, I think your whole argument is based on your anecdotal experience that you would be able to get more work done. If that’s true, then your boss should be amenable to letting you swap days off. Why not ask and see?
Some one quoted the statistic that 84% of the pop. identifies themselves as Christian. I work in an office of about 60 people. So let’s say there’s about a dozen people who would rather work the 25th than spend the day watching tv or sleeping in (sickos). Trust me, the heat is not on. It’s turned off at 5:00 PM sharp (I used to work until 6:00, I know this for a fact). Do you think the government wants to waste money heating a building for a dozen people? (“We have a responsibility to the tax payers! What would they say??” We get this one a lot.)
Also, who’s going to cover for the 84% of workers who stay home? In our office, the majority of people who appear to not give a hoot about Christmas (ie, never participate in parties or gift exchanges, never decorate their offices or cubicles, never distribute Christmas cards, so I don’t know if they’re atheist, agnostic, or just apathetic) are attorneys, judges and Board members. Are they going to want to spend the day filing or making copies or sorting mail? Unlikely. “The tax payers don’t pay me $70,000 a year to make copies all day!!” But these are essential job functions; if someone doesn’t do these menial tasks, then work doesn’t make it to the big guys. So some people who would like to take the day off, even using their own personal holiday or vacation time, would probably be told, “No, we need you here.”
It’s just easier and cheaper to shut everything down and send everyone home. That’s the way the government likes things, at least when it comes to us little people: cheap and easy. The more money they can trim from our budget, the more they can spend on more important things, like $200 a foot carpeting for the Capitol building.
As for your proposed “personal holiday” time, in Oregon at least (I don’t know if this is uniqute to our state) we do get, in addition to accrued sick and vacation leave, 2 days of “Personal Business” leave per year which cannot be accrued. If they’re not used by July 1st, they’re lost, but on July 1st we get 2 more for the next 12 months. These could be (and no doubt are) used as “personal holiday” time by those who want to take non-government recognized days off, but it is still in addition to Christmas.
But isn’t this supposed to be a democracy? Doesn’t the majority rule? If George W. Bush, Jr., wins the presidency by popular vote, then I’d just have to suck it up. Is that fair? If 84% of Americans celebrate Christmas in one way or another and like having the 25th off, then is it any less fair to expect the other 16% to put up with it? Is it any worse than putting up with any other popular position that you hate?
“I hope life isn’t a big joke, because I don’t get it,” Jack Handy
Because they don’t allow that kind of flex time. Christmas is an official government holiday. If you work it, you get 2 or 2.5 times overtime (or comp time) and you need special permission to do so (which ain’t gonna happen unless there is a crisis of global proportions except in cases like the police).
I don’t imagine it at all. I’d like to think that our court system would recognize a First Amendment violation when it sees one, but I’ve been proven wrong too many times on that to actually believe they will. But does that mean I’m not allowed to talk about my opinion on the matter?
Then, frankly, I think you need to go back and read the thread, 'cus you obviously missed quite a bit of it.
Gr8Kat said:
Thank you!
Um, trust me, the heat is certainly on. It stays on all night and all day at the same level throughout the building. As I’ve noted before, there are still people around at any given time – folks working overtime, managers who had to come in, and the security people who wander the building. In case you missed it in my reply to Lisa, I’m speaking from experience here myself. Maybe there are some places like you describe, but I haven’t encountered one, and neither have my friends who work/worked elsewhere in state and federal government.
I think we’ve already gone over this about 3-4 times here, so forgive me for being a bit rude, but please see above.
No, it’s a Constitutional Republic.
Not when it comes to violating the Constitution, no.
Not necessarily correct. He could win the popular vote and lose the electoral vote. But in any event, even if he becomes President, that doesn’t mean he can override the Constitution. Bill Clinton has found this out several times (when he wanted to do random searches at housing projects, when he signed the line-item veto law, etc.).
Well, I did read this part and kind of rolled my eyes. Yeah, Trish the computer guru probably doesn’t care if an attorney is there to draft an order, but if the server were to crash, that attorney would be screwed if she were home on holiday. Carol the office specialist doesn’t care if a Board member isn’t there to review cases, but if no one routes cases to review to the Board member, it’s pointless for her to be there. Dani the secretary doesn’t care if her judge is presiding over a hearing today, but if no one is there to retrieve his files or manage his case load, how’s he to know what’s on the docket for today? These higher ups are very dependent upon their underlings to run and fetch and keep everything organized. I’d like to see a Board member trying to operate the date stamping machine in the mail room, or figure out how look up a case in the data entry system. These people are paid to sit behind their desks all day thinking about case law; most of them need us to hold their hand to get through Windows Explorer, for God’s sake. Don’t you dare argue with me on this point, I am one of the office Super Users. It’s my job to answer phone calls like, “This file is read only, how can I get it back to read-write?” and “Where did my e-mail address book go?” and “Can you find this case in the Board docket log for me? I got lost in WANG again.” They aren’t paid to pick up a manual or hit F10 for help, and they sure aren’t paid to sort mail and file.
You’re right, I forgot that central issue. So is it really violating the Constitution? The first amendment says:
Oh, good grief. And how many times have the religion police broken down your door and clubbed your kneecaps for not being Christian? How much time have you spent in prison for your atheist beliefs? How many Bibles has the government mailed to you? How many times have your threads been deleted because you expressed non-Christian opinions in them? Just because everyone is shooed home for one ostensibly Christian holiday doesn’t mean a state religion has been established. It means a majority of the country gets one of their favorite days of the year at home with their family, to attend church, or eat candy, or open presents, and the rest of the people in the country get a long weekend to sleep in, or watch a game on tv, or putter around the house.
I disagree with prayer in school because a teacher would be instructing children how to pray. Even other Christians would probably butt heads if the teacher didn’t say exactly the right things, let alone all the other religions that would be excluded. I understand how that could be seen as the state endorsing one religion or denomination over another.
But a majority of the country shuts down on Christmas day anyway. You’ve fussed about how the post office is closed so you couldn’t mail a package; how many businesses in the private sector are open? In my office we work very closely with insurance companies and law firms. They all shut down for Christmas without being forced to by the government. We could try to hold a hearing, but how many attorneys from the private sector are going to want to come back from their Christmas vacation to the mountains for that? We would end up with a judge in an empty hearing room with a crashed computer and a misfiled case. THAT’S a good use of taxpayer money.
And one more attempt to appeal to the taxpayer in all of us: imagine millions and millions of government employees staying home. Yes, they get paid for that day, but they aren’t making long distance phone calls, they aren’t stealing office supplies, they aren’t throwing away reams of paper, and they aren’t passing legislation to take away more of the taxpayers’ money. C’mon, you’ve gotta like that
“I hope life isn’t a big joke, because I don’t get it,” Jack Handy
I forgot to address this issue (I’ve probably forgotten to address a lot of issues):
I’m a lousy debater for many reasons, but the one I’m thinking of now is that I tend to tip my hand. I don’t work in a government building; we are renting office space in a publicly owned building. I don’t know how much the state reimburses the business for the electicity, water, etc., that we use. I would assume we do somehow, but I don’t know how. But the building does get awfully chilly after 5:00 PM rolls around, and on Fridays the lights in the hallways and the elevators are all shut off at 5:00 because the owners of the building are 7th Day Adventists. I’ve had to fight to keep the elevator turned on late enough for me because I’m disabled and don’t do stairs. But their Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday, so they send all their own employees home early, especially in the winter when sundown is at 4:00 or 4:30, and start shutting things down. It is a privately owned building and they can do whatever they want with it, and the rest of us just have to put up with it.
So you want to make them come in on Christmas and turn everything on for the state employees? As if they don’t already hate having to share office space with us now…
“I hope life isn’t a big joke, because I don’t get it,” Jack Handy
Gr8Kat, you’re still repeating a lot of stuff that’s already been discussed. If the court system won’t work because of its direct interaction with the public and a lack of personnel, then it should be shut down for that reason. This is what I was talking about when I said, in my previous message, “I think we’ve already gone over this about 3-4 times here, so forgive me for being a bit rude, but please see above.”
You also said:
Yes, it really is. The police don’t have to come in and club me to be a First Amendment violation. The government is giving preference to a specific religious holiday.
I have? Where? Please quote me saying this (or rather, when you can’t find it 'cus I didn’t say it, please apologize).
That’s the way it works in Illinois as well. In fact, during the recent drivers license bribery scandal, one news article noted that the Secretary of State doesn’t “own” any buildings, but only rents space. But so what? I used to rent an apartment, and the electric company, gas company, water company, etc. always knew how much of the bill was mine and how much was for other people. In other words, they get charged for as much as they use. Your situation of a building owned by 7th Day Adventists sounds like a major exception, not the rule.
Quote from David:
Um, trust me, the heat is certainly on. It stays on all night and all day at the same
level throughout the building. As I’ve noted before, there are still people around at any
given time – folks working overtime, managers who had to come in, and the security
people who wander the building. In case you missed it in my reply to Lisa, I’m speaking
from experience here myself. Maybe there are some places like you describe, but I haven’t encountered one, and neither have my friends who work/worked elsewhere
Gee, David, and that’s not argument based on anecdotal experience? You’ve repeatedly rejected other people’s experience that is counter to yours. My experience is that the heat IS turned down on long holidays.
Also, I wish to clarify that I was not suggesting that you don’t have a RIGHT to worry about this–only that it’s pretty pointless. But, if you enjoy making yourself upset over something that isn’t going to change, go ahead!
Yes, it’s anecdotal. And I’ve noted that. However, it’s also my own experience plus the experience of every other state and federal employee I’ve talked to about this (previous to this thread). In fact, Gr8Kat went on to explain why I think he situation is the exception (owned by the Seventh Day Adventists).
What experience is that? With which level of government?
Oh, and Christmas is one day long – not a “long holiday.” What “long holidays” are you talking about?
OK, since you asked about my experience with government–the office I worked in was closed for a long holiday–the two day 4th of july holiday–the air conditioner was turned off and you cannot work in the deep south in a high rise building without air conditioners.
I still fail to see why you resent having a holiday that doesn’t suit your particular religion. Using your type of evidence-anecdotal–even atheists and anti-christians enjoy having a day to spend with their family. I, personally, have never spent a Labor day in my life celebrating the Labor movement but I sure enjoyed having the day off. Ditto with Martin Luther King/Robert E. Lee day, Memorial Day, Veteran’s Day. I suppose I should–but the most I ever do is send up a prayer of thanks for the gift of freedom these people gave us.
Anecdotally, most people enjoy spending extra time with their families. Too bad you don’t.
As I reread my last post, it made me sick. Here it is the season of peace and I’m participating in a fight over the whole thing.
David, I’m sorry you hate having the government recognise a holiday with Christian overtones. It is hard to follow the beat of a different drummer. No society truly accepts that. Even if you are right (and I’m not saying you are) about a federal holiday violating the 1st amendment, it’s fruitless to rail against it. If the Supreme Court outlawed Christmas holidays today, tomorrow Congress would meet, propose a constitutional amendment allowing it and the state legislatures would probably meet the next day to ratify it. That’s life.
Probably most of us have issues over laws we regard as constitutional. I, for one, think abortion except to save the life of the mother, is nothing more than legalized murder. But, realistically, the most I can do about it is support pro-life candidates, and give my money to agencies who help poor mothers and unwed mothers, and be an advocate for the disabled. It’s pointless for me to be angry about it–to hate others with opposing viewpoints–or to ruin my health stewing about it.
So, for those of you who are feeling oppressed by a society that celebrates a holiday you find offensive, I hope that you will be able to leave behind your anger and hatred and ignore the reason behind the holiday and simply enjoy a day of respite from work. I won’t offend you by wishing you a Merry Christmas. I only wish you peace and happiness, whatever the day.
All right, here’s another point that I don’t think I’ve seen addressed, but I’ve been wrong before.
Most people in my building are under a Union contract. I think it’s a relatively safe assumption that in many offices, the represented employees outnumber the unrepresented employees. Our contract makes provisions regarding the days and hours represented employees work; for example, we cannot work more than 40 hours a week, we can only work between the hours of 6:00 AM and 6:00 PM, and we will get certain days off as paid holidays, one of which is December 25th (or December 24th or 26th, should the 25th fall on a weekend). The unrepresented employees, which are mainly the Board members, attorneys, and judges, work whenever and wherever they want, at home, on weekends, etc. They could probably work the 25th if they so desire, but they probably don’t desire because the agencies they interact with are closed and the support staff, being represented, is at home.
My question is this: Is it really a 1st Amendment violation if the represented employees have signed a contract with the government, of their own free will, agreeing that December 25th will be a paid holiday? I mean, I also have the right to bear arms, but I’d be disciplined or fired if I brought a gun into the building because I entered into an agreement in which I said I won’t, so I can’t. Is there a difference? Or do you think the Constitution is being violated in this example, too?
“I hope life isn’t a big joke, because I don’t get it,” Jack Handy
Well, for one thing, depending on the union laws of your state, I’m willing to bet that most employees didn’t actually “sign” the contract. They may be represented by the union, but they also may have absolutely no choice (they may “choose” fair share instead of paying union dues, but they still have no choice in the union contract). In any event, it’s a cause/effect problem. The contract specified 12/25 as a work holiday because it’s a government holiday. It’s not like the union guys came in and said, “Hey, we’d like a random day off. How about the 25th of December?”
