His4ever:
vs Jesus:
Monty, don’t you realize that the French cannot be saved, since Dieu does not appear in the KJV? If English was good enough for Jesus. . . .
And here it is, ladies and gents. The patented FundieNonsense definitions of “religion” and “Christianity.” These defintions, which have no basis in language, history or reality, are trotted out whenever the fundie bigots want to smear the beliefs of others as “religion” while trying to create an argument of “purity” for their own beliefs. It is, of course, all crap. But then again, what about fundamentalism isn’t?
Religion: Beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities.
Christianity: The religion based on the life, teachings, and example of Jesus Christ.
Fundamentalist Christianity: Christianity for those unwilling or unable to see the world the way it truly is.
Kirk
His4Ever, I repeat (original on page 2, I think):
For the first 1000 years of Christianity, there was only one church with no formal divisions. (Although there were certainly internal squabbles.) Since that time, there is documented history indicating which pope succeeded which in Roman Catholic records and, I suspect, Eastern Orthodox. The man generally acknoweledged to be the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, was a Catholic monk, and considered himself a Catholic to his death. In short, history tells us that Roman Catholicism grew out of the only church which existed for the first 1000 years of Christianity.
The idea of “Christians being born again” in its current form didn’t become common until the 1700’s. Now, by your beliefs, as stated, anyone who is not “born again” is not a Christian, as are Catholics, thus is condemned to Hell. In other words, you’ve just wiped out the first 1,000 years (if you’re counting only Catholics) or 1,700 years if you’re counting everyone who wasn’t born again.
Concerning Matthew 16:18, what Christ said was “You are Peter, the Rock, and on this very rock I will build my congregation.” This translation is from The Complete Gospels, and it contains footnotes which go into a bit more detail. Here’s the footnote:
In other words, Christ made a pun, thus giving me justification for one of my favorite vices! 
It continues:
In other words, if you try to tell me that Peter (Rocky?) was not the rock upon which the church was built, in my book, either you’re twisting the words of Christ into about a dozen pretzels, or you’re denying the words of the Book you praise above all.
Finally, while others have already taken you to task on this, I’ll join in and point out that Allah is neither more nor less than the Arabic word for God. The first of the five principles of Islam which Muslims are required to proclaim at intervals daily is “There is no god but God and God is His name.” To translate any of the three uses of “God” as “Allah” is doing Islam an unwarranted disservice. This is also explicitly according to the Koran the God of Abraham and Isaac and it acknowledges Christ’s existence, albeit as prophet, not Son of God. Yes, Muslims are not Christians, just as Jews are not Christians, yet we all worship the same God. To say that someone are not Christians because they worship Allah, is to say that Germans aren’t Christians because they worship “Gott”, or French aren’t Christians because they worship “Dieu”. I’ll also admit that this seems to be a pretty common misperception; I studied up on Islam after being appalled that a member of my own congregation didn’t realize that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
CJ
Sorry, I forgot to add, Diogenes, I accept your apology.
Also, while I’m clarifying, I didn’t mean to imply Eastern Orthodox traditions record which pope succeeded which, but which church official succeeded which. I’m afraid I’m woefully ignorant about Eastern Orthodox traditions, but I’m sure if I hang around here long enough, that will change.
CJ
Not if you’re a Christian who believes the origin of Islam supported by the archeological record, in which Muhammad merely took one god out of the 200 worshipped by the pagan inhabitants of Mecca and founded a new religion based on him in order to gain power, afterwards claiming it was just a reformation of Judaism and Christianity in order to gain influence over the two monotheistic faiths that existed before. In that case, the god of Islam is a pagan idol, empty words from a dubious prophet don’t change that.
UnuMondo
I just can’t figure how Kirkland thinks only Catholics are true christians.
I am a fundamentalist christian , I prefer Assemblies of God churches but am going to a Pentecostla one right now.
Please, Kirk, go read assemblies positions and beleefs and tell me what of them aren’t christian.
Ah, but if we start taking things on archaeological record alone, I think all religions are in trouble. Despite this, I remain best friends with an archaeologist. I also realize that Jews will say Christians and Muslims don’t worship the same God, and Christians will say Muslims don’t worship the same God, yet all 3 according to their own texts, say they worship the God of Abraham and Isaac.
If I were interested in starting a hijack, I could also give you my personal take on how Muhammed’s denying the trinity was a reaction to a polytheistic society, but I’ll save that for a more appropriate time and place, if one ever comes up. Let’s just leave it with me admitting that comparative theology is a can of worms if ever there was one!
CJ
Hmm, just because they call their god God, is it really the same? If so, why do muslims drive planes into buildings believing that for doing so they’ll get rewarded in paradise with a certain number of virgins? They can call Allah the God of Abraham and Isaac if they choose but evidently they’re not worshipping Him in spirit and in truth. But then you’re going to ask how do I know the Qu`ran isn’t God’s word instead of the Holy Bible. Guess we’ll find out eventually, won’t we?
You got it. I think that’s just what happened. Allah, I believe, was the moon god.
Well, that’s oversimplifying it (but saying MOON GOD! gets the reaction that oversimplifying people like Jack Chick like). In a pagan religion, gods tend to represent multiple things. Allah’s biggest role was as the god of the moon (if I recall correctly his consort Al Lat was the goddess of the sun).
UnuMondo
Do Muslims believe Jesus was the son of God?
Same way some people shoot doctors who work at abortion clinics- fanaticism and fringe interpretation of their religion?
Or, as a larger example, why did the Protestants and Catholics kill each other in 16th century France?
The point is that you can’t know. That’s why Islam and Christianity are based on faith, not just fact.
No, Muslim theology does not believe Allah can have a son. The indivisability of the divine is a big part of Islam, that’s why the trinity cannot be accepted. However, they do believe that Jesus (or “Isa”) was a prophet who did impart several meaningful teachings, although the Bible is a corrupted record.
If I recall correctly, Muslims believe that Jesus didn’t actually die on the cross, but through the help of divine power he switched places with a local man while carrying the cross and made a swift getaway.
UnuMondo
For the same reason that some Christians play with venomous snakes in church and some Christians burned and hanged other Christians over differences of opinion of obscure passages of Scripture, and some Christians hanged and otherwise murdered innocent women on the off chance that those women might have consorted with the devil.
(And the “virgins in paradise” deal in Islam is just the sort of “snake handling” misunderstanding that people that do not study the Koran believe out of ignorance.)
Well, even if they did study the Koran they wouldn’t find it there. The reference to virgins in paradise is from the Hadith. It’s still a Muslim teaching though (the fact that it exists that way, not that suicide killers will attain it)
UnuMondo
cj I believe you are correct in your assessment of the Catholic Church’s being the only game in town for about 1,000 years.
However, I was brought up in the Church of Christ to believe that the True Christians (that is, us C of C’ers) were a secret underground movement present from the beginning, never straying from the practices of the Early Christians. These underground Christians left no record of any kind, unfortunately, but they were the true spirit of the Church from early times up to the present day.
They even stayed underground during the Reformation, surfacing for the first time in 19th-c. America when the true Church was finally restored in its visible form. This is why they do not call themselves Protestant; they had nothing to do with the Protestant Reformation.
Thank goodness FINALLY after all those centuries, at last we have a true visible church again. All the popes, plus all the Reformers, have been in hell now for ________ days.
And if you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to sell you…
(and they wonder why I’m warped)
Actually, Vanilla, the only accurate answer is “yes and no.” They believe in the Virgin Birth, surprisingly, but are so focused on the Oneness and Otherness of God (Allah) that they react with high dudgeon to the idea that Jesus is the Son of God. There’s a record of Mohammed or one of the earliest Caliphs expressing high offense at the concept of which a close paraphrase (I don’t have the original to translate) would go: “How can it be said that Iesu is the Son of God? Does God have a penis that He should beget a child? Is the Holy God to be seen as filled with lust for mortal women? Is not His Holiness such that such an idea fills you with disgust?”
Well, we both know they’re wrong on some important issues. But your first conclusion is not a fair one – it was Christians, or people who called themselves Christians, who killed Matthew Shepard and who dragged the black man in Texas to his death behind a truck.
The fact that radical fringe types follow a perversion of our beliefs does not invalidate our beliefs. I’m willing to believe, with C.S. Lewis, that a Moslem who believes in God and worships Him in spirit and in truth, and who has been led astray by dogma twisters, will be recognized by Christ as one of His own at the Last Judgment. What He’ll decide about Osama and his “martyrs” is quite another story – If you’ve ever heard the story of Osama and the 72 Virginians, I tend to feel that’d be a just reward!
As for the “Moon God” thing, Mohammed did nothing more than did Melchizedek and the pre-Moses Patriarchs – recognize from among the various pagan deities the identity of the One True God, and call Him by the appelation that the member of the pagan pantheon had had. When we refer to ourselves as “theists” we are doing nothing more than acknowledging belief in an ancient high god supreme over any “gods” beneath him whose closest direct descendent concept is in the Norse/Germanic God Tiw.
Actually, Allah can either mean God or can be the name of God.
Arabic speaking Christians (The Copts, for example), will use Allah when it means God but name as the name of God. So in everyday phrases we will use Allah.
In church services it is usually Rab, Rabina, (Father) or one of the terms for Jesus. We do not acknowledge Allah, the God of Islam, to be our God. Just because we both claim one God does not mean it is the same one.
[nitpick]Peter is actually Greek. The Aramaic name is Cephas[nitpick]
Yahweh was also orginally just one tribal god out of many. (Joseph Campbell believes it was originally an Arabian volcano god) Much of Genesis is derived from Mesopotamian mythology, and maybe you should look into some of the pre-Christian Greco-Roman mystery cults (particularly Mithraism) before you start accusing other people of being “pagans.”
Yes.