And how would you translate the Greek word [symbol]qrhskeia[/symbol]?
So do you have some magical non-translated Bible you can read from? The originals are long lost. There’s not even a consensus on what language some books of the Bible were written in! However, there is no question that modern day English Bibles are an accurate translation of the text as reflected in the oldest extant manuscripts available (barring that nasty “gender neutral” stuff that’s creeping in).
Your opinion, however, is counter to history and logic. Without the Church, there would be no New Testament, there would be no understanding of the Trinity, there would be no understanding of the nature of the Incarnation. The Church,which you condemn, is the source of all that you embrace.
Within 25 minutes of posting the topic you take an unwarranted pot shot at the Catholic Church, and you’re entire position is an ancient anti-Catholic fundamentalist canard, and I’m supposed to just take your word on this? Whatever.
Of course they are. All good Christians are religious, because Christianity is a religion. You CANNOT have beliefs about or faith in a God and not have a religion – that is what religion is!
You are a part of a religion. You refuse the term, but you cannot alter reality. There is no “God’s definition” of religion. Jesus never said “religionis bad.” The Bible, as ME pointed out, says good things about religion (and about works, too). Jesus preached an active faith of DOING, not a passive faith of BELIEVING. Any way you cut it, yours is just a novel approach at trying to call a cat a duck.
Kirk
Yes, and if God had wanted man to fly He would have gave him wings, for heavens sake. All the difference in the world between God and religion.
Yes, there is a difference beteween God and religion. God is an entity. Religion is any set of beliefs about such an entity. if you have beliefs about God, congrats, you have a religion.
Kirk
OK, I’ll wade into this. FTR, I’m a devout Anglican/Episcopalian who has also studied quite a bit on my own. I’m going to start with the premise that we human beings are inherently fallible. Also, studying the Bible in its original language would require a mastery of at least 3 ancient languages.
Çyrin, if we discard what you call religion, what do you suggest we replace it with? If you’ve hung around in GD much, you must have seen people interpret the same verse in quite different ways. Christians were given explicit rules by God in the form of the 10 Commandments, followed by Christ’s new Commandment just for openers. Yes, human beings tend to add onto these rules and create legalistic quagmires which, in my opinion, pervert the spirit of their foundations, but Christianity is hardly anarchy.
We are commanded by Christ to come together. Anytime people come together, some sort of rule must be established, whether it’s formally noticed or not. Take the Lord’s Table/Eucharist alone. Some way of making sure everyone gets bread and wine must be established, and there has to be some way of distributing those elements, and that’s without allowing for blessing.
The book of Acts also contains descriptions of the early church, complete with rules and punishments for breaking those rules. People will tend to take advantage of things and turn them to their own good, whether it’s Ananias and his wife holding back the proceeds from selling their property in Acts 5:1-12 or a certain Fundamentalist preacher of my acquaintance who apparently had no problem with sexual harrassment (unfortunately for him, I did).
Çyrin, a similar thought to what you wrote was expressed in the movie Dogma. In it, the heroine is told that God wants us to have ideas, not religion. I can see some merit in that, and I have seen legalistic religion used as a bludgeon. The problem is, you seem to be arguing for “God’s definition of religion” which you apparently believe you know, but the rest of us don’t. Those of us who consider ourselves devout followers of Christ are doing just that – doing His will for us as we understand it. Sometimes that does result in equally devout people doing directly contradictory things, but I don’t see how getting rid of what you call “religion” would change that.
Also, your telling non-Christians to stay out of this debate because they don’t know anything is as specious as anything I’ve read. I’ve noticed that many of the Atheists who participate in debates on religion are as knowledgable about Christianity as some of the Christians who participate, if not more so. One reason for this is some of them are former Christians who have studied the Bible and other works. I, for one, would be very interested in reading their opinions.
[hijack]
Kirkland, out of curiousity, how do you feel about Celtic Christianity?
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CJ
Did you know that natural selection is survival of the fittest?
Just a nitpick, Kirkland, I think the Eastern Orthodox can technically lay claim to being the oldest version of Christianity since they are the ones who preserved the early structure of various bishops of equal rank running things. Of course, the Catholic Church is based on that, with the Pope having been the Bishop of Rome and having no equals in emminence in the west naturally he became top dog. But still…
Doesn’t it say in the Bible Jesus came to abolish the law, that we are no longer under the law?
I read a verse that said “Cursed are all who are under the law.”
Sorry i don’t recall the book it came from, but,
Does religion have laws?
Kirkland: What denominations do you consider Christian?
To getback to my OP question…
If God is against the idea of a religious following and more interested in us as people. Then how can all of the terrible things caused by religion be cause to blame God.
Also, despite the pickings apart of my beliefs, I do appreciate the insight of those posting here, yes Kirk especially you!
and yes Vanilla Galations talks very frankly about being feed from the law.
Yes, Jesus (and God, by implication) declared all foods (and drinks) “kosher” or allowed.
We are under grace, not works.
But is that reliigon, then?
Mat5:17
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”
“Much good has come when religious devotion is the inspiration. How about Mother Teresa?”
—I think we’ve already had a few threads about that insane, thieving, medicine-denying, overhyped bitch. I will grant that some good has come out of various religions, but Ma T. is not among them.
I guess the Greek font doesn’t transfer. The proper transliteration should be “threskia.” (pronounced thray-skee-ah)
Translation: religious worship, cult, religious ritual.
IMHO, and I agree with much of what Kirkland has said, I think the point that Cyrin is trying to make is that any real God (Jewish, Christian, Moslem, or otherwise) is displeased by what Libertarian has called “religion politicians” – people who attempt to use an earlier faith leader’s teachings to rule over and abuse others.
It doesn’t take a whole lot of mental agility to think that maybe Jesus had a handle on something right but that Jerry Falwell and Cardinal Ratziger are taking what he said and twisting it to suit their own desires for authority over others.
Not the first time, and I am sure not the last time that Polycarp will be able to eloquently say in a few sentances that which I have been stressed over for much too long.
Later Kirkland does say "If you want to restore what the Christian religion was like immediately after the death of Jesus, join an Eastern Orthodox Church. Or the Catholic or Anglican Churches, which are the same, only with further refinements. ", which implies what you are saying.
Kirkland, for this alone: “barring that nasty “gender neutral” stuff that’s creeping in” you are my new hero! (Hoping you meant that seriously).
Çyrin, it’s difficult to really have a discussion when you feel it’s valid to dismiss people out of hand because they aren’t what you consider “real” Christians. Isn’t there something about a “real Scotsman” fallacy in argument?
FTR, I am a traditional Catholic (none of this new age stuff) who believes, as Jesus instructed, that loving God with your whole heart, soul and mind os the most important commandment. Following the “rules” of Catholicism is not a slavish devotion to the law, as the Pharisees did, but an expression of love for God. Loving yourself and your neighbor implies a lifestyle of peace, generosity and humility and observance of practices, not out of fear or blind obedience but joyful service of God. 'The love of Christ impels us."
I’m not sure people usually do “blame God”; rather, they blame people who act certain ways in the name of God.
Or maybe I am missing your point?
Gigi you may not do this, andthank you btw, but I have heard many arguments in which people dismiss the notion that God is loving, because of all the horrible things done in his name.
Also to note that Galations also speaks that if you follow any part of the law, you are then obliged to follow EVERY part of the law, if you wish to be saved. From my point of view, and it is just that, Catholics have this set of rules/doctrine which they follow, and intentions aside, have bound themselves to it. Christ came to fufill the law, that is he came to free us from it. Once something is fufilled, we are no longer required to follow it. Because our love for Christ compels us to act towards others out of Love, we may then by definition be in keeping with the law, however our intention is not so.
I’m afraid I know very little about it, aside from the fact that its structures seemed fairly Eastern Orthodox from my perspective.
Its hard to compare the two. The Catholic system looks a lot more vertically integrated than it is because its missing a level – the Patriarchs, since all the non-Roman patriarchs went East in the schism.
Yes, but religion is not limited to laws, and laws are not necessary for a religion. Whenever you have faith in a divine being, you have a religion, regardless of whether that divine being has certain things he/she/it expects you to do on a regular basis in order to stay in his good graces. Of course, I think Jesus clearly does give us commands of things we are to DO to be Christian, that its more than merely a belief, faith-alone system as some would try to have you believe.
In my opinion, which is obviously not God’s, to be a Christian denomination, you have to have strong ties to the historical faith. Catholicism, Anglicanism and Orthodoxy are all right there. As are, I think, the forms of Protestantism that have maintained structures and doctrinal continuity with historical Christianity are also obviously valid: Lutheranism, Presbyterian and Calvinism, Methodism, etc.
I would not consider “Christian” any of the fundamentalist bodies that have sprung up like a cancer in the past couple hundred years, and who buy into nonsense like the Rapture, King Jimbo-Onlyism, Once Saved Always Saved: Baptists, Non-Denoms (which are just Baptists who are afraid to formally take sides), Jews for Jesus (Baptists with fake Hebrew accents), etc.
But that’s just my opinion, its not necessarily a fact.
I don’t consider Jerry Falwell a Christian in any way, shape or form, nor do I care much for conservative Catholic leaders like Ratzinger. However, the abuses of a person does not discredit the system or institution they work within. A bad pope doesn’t mean Catholicism isn’t God’s religion anymore than Richard Nixon’s antics meant that we should give up on the American system of government.
While I don’t have a theological problem with gender equality (women, I’m sure, would make find priests), I don’t like gender-neutral translations because they obscure the meaning of the text.
Kirk
Actually, just so you know, there are non-Roman Catholic patriarchs in the other Catholic rites. For example:
Stephanos II Ghattas, Copto-Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria
Cardinal Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir, Maronite Patriarch of Antioch and all the East
Ignace Antoine II Hayek, Syriac Patriarch of Antioch
Ohannès Petros XVIII Kasparian, Armenian Catholic Patriarch
Maximos V Hakim, Greek Melkite Patriarch of Antioch and all the East and Alexandria and Jerusalem
Mar Rouphael I Bidawid, Patriarch of Babylon for the Catholic Chaldeans
There are several more, each Patriarch being the head of a specific rite, with the power to administer the rite. It’s true you don’t hear much about them, especially in the West, but they exist.