UGH!! It seemed like there was a chance for a breakthrough here. But the batshit insanity won out . . .
Which is, as DocCathode pointed out, and as I pointed out, and as several other people pointed out, central to their faith in the way that Jesus is central to Christianity. You’d be banning the practice of Judaism, or at minimum driving it underground.
No, dear, I had no such ambitions. I don’t have any desire for you to lose sleep; the fact that you’re batshit insane doesn’t mean I want you to come to any harm.
It doesn’t matter if you do or not. A few isolated anecdotes are not the same as data. Of course, stating that “a few isolated anecdotes are out there, but I’m not telling you where” is even further from actual data. Sorry I won’t take your word on it.
This just in: catsix, the well-known pseudonym of a batshit insane anti-circumcision crusader, has condemned the central practices of the Jewish faith!
We weren’t talking about that, were we? He was making a point about just how central circumcision is to Judaism, but you continue to pretend that it’s not. You (and your associates) have asked those on the other side to accept arguments comparing female genital mutilation to circumcision, ignoring the fact that one is much more harmful than the other; I should hope you’d have the courtesy to actually listen to what DocCathode is saying rather than freely condemning an entire religion.
No, catsix, statements like yours above, kindly offering to let Jews practice their religion except for that nasty circumcision bit indicate clearly that you don’t understand the importance of this ritual to Jewish people. You, in fact, have demonstrated time after time that you don’t consider circumcision an important element of Judaism, which indicates that you have virtually no understanding of it.
Hey, hey, hey, I was one of the first, if not the first people in the thread to point out just how important circumcision is. And I came up with the quote from the Torah. I mean, I’m not exactly claiming to be a theologian, but a little credit, maybe?
Anyway, catsix, you can repeat over and over that Jews can be Jews without practicing circumcision. If that were the case, it would make your point stronger, but the fact is that it’s not. Judaism considers the “old book” you dismiss so freely to be the word of G-d, and the first command of G-d, the one that established the Jews as the Chosen People, the command that began Judaism was the command to Abram (was he Abraham yet?) to clip himself and his kid.
You don’t have to think this is right. But this kind of thing is what I’ve been getting at when I defend “tradition” and “cultural values”. When you start throwing things out willy-nilly, it has unintended consequences. catsix would like to see Judaism banned in this country, though she would deny it. Throwing out the practices that make up a culture, ethnic group, or religion is taking that group apart, like removing support beams from a building. Some of 'em are minor, and some are important. With Judaism and circumcision, it’s like pulling the foundation out.
I view each culture, religion, and ethnicity as an inherently good, worthwhile thing. I don’t think they should be tossed aside lightly. I don’t believe that anything is justified in the name of religion - I’m fine banning human sacrifice, and if that means some religions are banned, so be it. But there has to be real, significant, major harm caused by a practice to justify this drastic step. Human sacrifice causes that major harm. So does female genital mutilation.
No one yet has made a case that circumcision does - catsix has her general philosophical objections to taking away parts of babies, which make perfect sense to me (unlike the rest of what she says.) And I agree, in principle. Chotii talks about the results of circumcision in some adult men, and I think those are both sad and frightening. But if circumcision were to be banned, the ban would itself have major and destructive effects. And so circumcision would have to be very, very harmful to justify it. And if the number of guys who are truly upset about it, and the number of guys who are permanently sexually dysfunctional because of it, are small, as no one has even tried to dispute, then it’s not enough.
A case could be made for banning it, with religious exemptions, but to me that would imply that it’s a terrible practice and yet we’re allowing the Jews and Muslims to continue their barbarity - it would potentially create animosity, and it would also imply that the beliefs of Jews and Muslims are somehow more valid than the beliefs of any other parent who simply thought their kid should get cut, for whatever reason.
Circumcision in modern America is not a foundation. It’s more of a very minor structural beam. No doubt our society would get along without it, but there’s a dangerous precedent set in banning a common practice, a societal tradition, if the ban can’t be justified by demonstrating the tradition to be harmful. Circumcision is harmful, but the harm seems to be small enough that it doesn’t justify a ban. I couldn’t agree with a ban on it until it was shown that it’s far more dangerous than any of the other things we let parents do to their kids.
;j