Blatent Hijack
Yosemite, I swear, I’m going to REALLY, REALLY try to spell your screen name right from now on.
I’m a good speller, really I am. I just have a mental block against your screen name.
Additionally, without a bris, the kid isn’t a Jew. We can take him to synagogue every week, enroll him in a fine private Jewish school, and teach him fluent Hebrew. Without a bris, he is not a Jew.
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CITE?
You know, I personally don’t see this as adequate. No, it’s not an inherent problem with the procedure that it is sometimes performed inhumanely, but it’s a problem period. Those statistics Chotii pulled up are frightening; I have no clue which type of doctor performs most circumcisions, but the fact that there are significant numbers that still persist in performing it without anaesthesia is chilling to me.
Yes, it’s a problem with the doctors, but it’s a problem with the system if this is permitted. It’s not acceptable, IMHO, to leave it up to the patient to have to make sure their kid is getting proper care. Protocols need to be established and enforced to prevent doctors from deciding not to use anaesthesia (especially since there appears to be no reason to do so!)
It’s vital to be involved in any aspect of your kid’s medical care, and I don’t understand the motivation for leaving everything up to the doctor. Nevertheless, I don’t think we should have to rely on parents to ensure that the procedure is done properly. It’s not as though it’s up to the patient in most surgical procedures to remind the doctor about anaesthesia; in this case, where the patient has no say in the matter, protocol needs to ensure that they are not being mistreated.
Admirable. But many parents won’t do that. Many, in fact, probably still trust doctors implicitly. I’ve never been so easily accepting of authority, but I can understand that many parents would just assume that the doctor knows what she’s doing. And again, it’s not the patient’s responsibility to ensure that some minimal standards are met - should parents also watch to make sure the physician washes her hands?
With this, though, I’m probably going to bow out of the thread. It seems to have turned into a catsix v. everyone else debate whose topic centers on catsix’s posting style, which must be positively illuminating to some folks, given their persistence, but it clearly isn’t for catsix.
Nor for myself.
Who was it who said the definition of insanity was repeating the same action and expecting a different result? catsix is batshit insane, but some of you guys may be mildly nuts yourselves.
I don’t think that’s true, actually. If for some reason a boy can’t be circumcised as a child, he’s still a Jew, but when he turns 13, he has to have himself circumcised.
CITE?
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sevastopol, we spent several pages explaining this over and over to catsix. She may not agree, and you may not agree, but cites have been given. Now, given the clear idiocy of each of your posts, my assumption is that you haven’t bothered reading most of the thread. If you have, then in order to have missed this entire issue, you must be so mind-bendingly stupid that you ought to bow out now before the discussion distracts you from more important tasks, like breathing.
To the rest of you: one response apiece is plenty for these worthless posts. I’ve taken care of it. Furthermore, no further discussion need take place about posting styles, or who insulted whom, or who may be batshit insane. I’d really enjoy getting back to the topic at hand.
Urk! Just so we’re clear, the bit credited to sevastopol in my last message was posted by DocCathode. The mind-bendingly idiotic “CITE?” is the part that belongs to sevastopol. He hasn’t mastered the markup for quotes, and whatever he did screwed up the message.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanvasShoes
Second. I agree wholeheartedly, and I think most people, whether pro or anti circ would, that pain relief SHOULD be offered to babies being circumcised. No one in the pro circ side has said that it’s okay to circumcise without painkillers. And again, as I stated in my three previous posts, this, the fact that too many doctors don’t use painkillers, is not an argument against circumcision, it, along with treatment of women by ob/gyns, is an argument for more empathetic treatment by doctors, Period.
No, I didn’t mean that that was the solution period. I meant that that the fact that one doesn’t justify outlawing the other “period”. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. And yes, you’re right, more than just parents and patients should be responsible for the changes in this attitude by the medical community, but until it happens and changes the numbers Choti posts, it IS up to the patient/parent to be responsible for the care they receive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanvasShoes
IMO, lack of pain killers is something so easily changed with a parent’s active involvement, and insistance that this isn’t a reasonable argument against circumcision.
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It should, but currenlty it doesn’t. Just as Choti says in her example of OB/GYN treatment. So, if we want decent treatment is is currently, whether right or wrong, up to us. I’m choose good doctors. I have no qualms about “firing” crappy ones. That’s not how it should be, you’re right. The medical community should be doing a lot more to change the status quo, but since that is what we have to work with NOW. It is up to us to be sure we get the appropriate level of care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanvasShoes
Well, first of all, I didn’t have my son circumcised right after he was born. We brought him back a few days later. And we were allowed to be in the room with him, just gowned and masked and we had to stay away from the doctors to give them room. We got him a nano-second after they were done.
I was that trusting at one time. I guess that’s what brought about understanding that “they ain’t God”. I was an extremely naive young mom. Very trusting. I partially agree with you. I don’t think it “should” be the patients responsibility. But in absence of appropriate medical care, it becomes that or just trust. So, in a manner of speaking, it is the patient’s responsibility. That doesn’t make it right, but if the patient is to get the right care, it’s reality.
I have been pretty lucky. I’ve only had to “fire” a few doctors. Most of the time, I’ve lucked into excellent care, like the doctor who was my ob/gyn and pediatrician (small town at that time :D). As I said. The man absolutely anticipated patients questions. Rarely did he not have the answers already prepared, whether about my daughter’s (then 12) strep throat, or about my pregnancy, or any questions about the kids, from ear infections to measles, to a weird virus I suffered from for two semesters of college, he kept after it, and it was as if we corraborated on the problem to find a solution rather than he was the allknowing doctor, and I was the dumb patient.
Sometimes. But in a good way.
Technically speaking, a Jewish boy who doesn’t have a bris is still Jewish. But that doesn’t detract from the importance of the commandment.
In any event, catsix, I’d like to ask you the following question:
All three of my kids (my sons and my daughter) go to a yeshiva for schooling. They spend about half to two-thirds of the day in religious study. The schools are gender-segregated (as the vast majority of Orthodox yeshivos are). They spend a long day in school (typically until 4:00 - 6:00 pm, depending on the age of the child). This will continue for at least 12 years (through high school). In addition, they will be expected to spend additional time (post-high school) in advance Jewish study. They will be expected to maintain good grades and be fluent in all subjects that they are taught.
In addition to the religious education, we expose our children to our religion on a 24/7 basis. My sons wear a kippah all the time. When we light the menorah during Channukah, my children are there. When we sit at the seder and tell over the story of the Exodus at Egypt, my children are there participating (indeed, the commandment is to relate the story to one’s children). When we sit down to eat, my children know that they can only eat kosher food. They know what is considered acceptable behavior for Shabbos. They go to shul with us on Shabbos and holidays and participate in the rituals and prayers.
I would say, without a shred of a doubt, that the religious education and upbringing that we give our children will have more of an effect on their lives than their circumcision, which they don’t even remember. Furthermore, even if later in life they were to reject their religion (God forbid), the upbringing that we have given them and the education that they have received will still affect the way they see the world and the way that they act for the rest of their lives.
Your contention is that circumcision is wrong because it is “marking the parent’s religion” on the child. Well, I’d daresay that everything I’ve mentioned above has had a much more profound effect in “marking my children” as Jewish far more than circumcision has. The education and religious exposure I have given my children is just as irreversible on their souls and psyches as a physical circumcision is on their bodies.
As such, I ask you if it is wrong, in your humble opinion, to educate one’s child in one’s religion, to immerse them in the practices, rituals, philosiphy and theology of their parent’s religions? If circumcision is a form of physical abuse becuase you are marking your religion on their bodies; is exposing children to religion a form of “mental abuse” in that you are “marking” on children’s minds your own religion?
Zev Steinhardt
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I will never regain the hours I lost reading this thread.
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I found it really peculiar that catsix commented about how respectful zev was, (I agree w/this, have always found him respectful, and generally a swell guy, even if we didn’t agree on a topic) but that she’d not agree w/him, when the topic of zev’s posts were (essentially) 'why circ is essential to the proper expression of his faith. given, that, apparently, catsiz is not Jewish, seems to have limited knowledge of the specifics of the religion)
Exactly. ONe of the most ignorant things some one can do is to not admit that they lack essential understanding of a topic. I’m not Jewish. Went to school with lots of folks who were, my dad’s entire co-business folks were, I worked for a Jewish man for a period of time, have several friends who are, etc.
and ya know what? when I want info on specifics about the religion, I actually, like ask those other folks. You’ll note, for instance, astro who posted stuff about what he thought would be the position of the faith wrt to an older male who converted (would he be required to get circumsized) and when folks who would actually know ('cause you know they like practised the faith and studied it and all) information that was contrary to what he thought - he backed off.
So, I find it highly amusing, but essentially audacious to assert that you neither a practising Jew nor some one who’s studied the religion, know more about the religion and beliefs than those who’ve practised/studied the religion for years (likely more years than you’ve been alive.
but then, I"m easily amused. (And in case you’re wondering what I’m referring to is catsixs assertion that circumscion is not essential to the JEwish faith, despite those who practice it asserting that ‘well, yes, it is’. )
Neither will I…
Thank you for the kind words, wring.
Zev Steinhardt
See that’s what happens when you lose interest in truth, so that you can push dogma. You get caught.
Thanks Zev for catching out the lies of Doc Cathode & Excalibre. There’s clearly no point trying to discuss things when people holding a different view have no qualms about lying outright to support that view.
There are all sorts of cogent and compelling points to be made about the rights of the child, the evident differences between cosmetic surgery and circumcision, the gravity of the religious imperative and so on. But not in discussion with liars.
Hey, how about cutting them some slack. Don’t you think that it’s possible that they were mistaken rather than lying? Lord knows I wouldn’t want to be called a liar for misstatements that I’ve made on these boards.
Zev Steinhardt
Consider it cut. 
Wellllll…
Every so often this subject comes up on misc.kids.pregnancy and there’s always going to be some mother-to-be who asserts that she will have her son cut because she thinks a cut cock is prettier.
Sounds pretty cosmetic to me.
I do not deny that for a small percentage of men, having been circumcised will be a life-saving surgery. This small advantage certainly is in effect no matter WHY the parents made that choice for them. However, there are also certainly parents out there who (because they can) clearly think no deeper than their own sexual preferences when they choose for their children. (I even know a guy who claims he had his kid cut because he “wanted him to get a blow-job someday.”)
In such a case, is it cosmetic, or isn’t it?
I was wrong. I posted something which Zev stated (and I’ll take his word for it) is incorrect. I’ll now have to go read commentaries on what the valid reasons to delay circumcision are, “the law of the land is the law” and a few other things.
Thank you for immediately concluding that I am a liar.
While I am not discouraging you from going further and studying on your own (heck, I’m encouraging it!), I will start you off:
To my knowledge, there are only four valid reasons to delay a bris:
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Possible danger to the health of the child. My sister’s son’s bris was delayed a few days for this reason. (Note: normal, routine risks that come with circumcision are not considered).
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Lack of a qualified mohel (which I would presume falls under the former category).
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Threat of life (as with most other commandments – if someone is standing over you with a gun and says “If you circumcize your son, I’ll kill you” then you may not circumcize your son.)
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Once a bris has been pushed off and is no longer on the eighth day, then it cannot be performed on the Sabbath or on a holiday. Thus if the first day a baby was ready for a bris was on Shabbos, then it is pushed off until Sunday.
Beyond that, there is, to my knowledge, no valid reason to delay a bris.
The concept of dina d’malchusa dina (that the law of the land is the law of Judaism) does not apply WRT a bris. If the government banned circumcision, we would still be required to perform it. Dina d’malchusa dina only applies where it does not conflict with Torah law.
Zev Steinhardt
That was one of the reasons the Maccabee rebellion happened.
Ummmm, HPV is a sexually transmitted virus and there is no correlation between HPV infection and genetic susceptibility that I’m aware of. I’ve done rather a lot of reading on the subject; cites on request.
I know that it wouldn’t apply to a total ban. I doubt that it would apply to a law requiring that a bris be delayed for ten years or more. But I’d like to know what Rashi, Rambam, Hilel and the rest have to say.
Oh my! I didn’t intend to post again in this thread, but I do have a new thought on the subject (although it really has turned into quite the train wreck, hasn’t it? - we may now be beyond the point of calm debate). Anyway.
My opinion on the subject now is that (and this sounds stupidly obvious) irreversible decisions made by parents on behalf of their children should be made in an earnest attempt to act on an honest prediction of what the wishes of the child would be, at such a time as it was able to express an informed opinion on the matter - in the case of infant cosmetic dentistry, I think most kids would probably choose straight, functional teeth.
However, the role of prevailing culture cannot be ignored here; in a country where circumcision is very much NOT the norm, the overwhelming majority of males would say “you want to cut WHAT? - no way”, but in a culture where circumcision IS the norm, it is possible that things might be very different.
It is imposible (or at least very difficult) for me to separate my gut reaction from the argument; if someone wanted to circumcise me now, even guaranteeing full and effective anaesthesia and uncomplicated recovery, I would resist in the same manner as if they were offering to painlessly scoop out my eyes.