At the ladies’ room? It’s all stalls, I have no problems with either transwomen or men being there so long as everybody is polite. At the changing room it would at the very least cause a double take, but I don’t expect much more than that (at least in those I usually visit).
One of the last times I had to use the restrooms at Sants Train Station, there was a long line at the men’s room (unusual, since normally it’s the ladies’ that have the longer line). We told the guys they could share ours and several of them took us up on the offer.
What you’re describing isn’t dressing as a “metrosexual”, it’s dressing as a woman. That makes it a choice between a transwoman and a transvestite.
Given the reports of beatings, rapes, and murders I think you vastly underestimate the danger to a transwoman walking into a men’s room.
My personal opinion is that if a transwoman is identified as such after walking into a men’s room she is actually in MORE danger than a ciswoman doing that. There are many men who find transsexuals both loathesome and threatening whereas a ciswoman is seen as pretty harmless, maybe even in need of protection.
If the transvestite is doing drag such that he passes as female when looked at he’s probably safer using the ladies’ as well, but if he’s obviously a guy in drag he should use the men’s room and if anyone gives him stink say he’s an actor being paid to wear a costume or lost a bet or something that implies he’s not doing it just because he likes to dress up.
I think the biggest issue for women is being attacked/assaulted. If a man is sneaking around that’s scary. If for some reason the men’s isn’t available and he loudly announces his entrance, or maybe there’s creepazoids in the men’s and he has a young daughter who needs to use the ladies’ and also needs supervision and he announces the situation prior to entering women are going to be more comfortable with the situation because 1) there’s no sneaking/scary behavior involved and 2) there’s a rationale for what he’s doing. It also helps if the women outnumber the men in such a situation.
For transwomen who pass it’s not an issue - they do, after all, pass. It’s the ones who have trouble passing that are potentially going to raise an issue. It’s a sticky situation at time, but as I said in the poll, for the most part I don’t feel threatened by transwomen, even the pre-op ones still in possession of a penis.
It’s not about gender. It’s about deliberately violating social norms, which is one big marker of a potential threat.
If I’m in a unisex bathroom and a guy walks in, no problem - in other words, I don’t have any inherent problem with the idea of being in a bathroom with a man. But if I’m in a women’s bathroom and a guy walks in, then he’s specifically and deliberately saying, ‘I don’t care about the fact that this is supposed to be a women-only area’. Which is a potential indicator that he might not care about other boundaries. So yeah, unless he makes it clear that he’s got a reason to be there, I’m going to be wary.
It’s like if I’m on a bus late at night and a guy sits down next to me. If the bus is half full and there are no all-empty seats, I wouldn’t think twice about it. But if I’m the only person on the bus and he walks all the way to the back to sit down next to me, then yeah, I’m going to be wary. Because he’s made it clear that he either doesn’t know or wants to break the convention that you don’t sit next to someone else on the bus while there are free seats. In that situation, I’d be wary of a woman, too. The problem isn’t sitting next to a guy; it’s sitting next to someone who’s deliberately made it clear that they aren’t planning to stick to the socially agreed boundaries.
The cis prefix is IMHO a way of dismissing the views of those who don’t share one’s views about gender.
Gender is indeed a rather slippery and complex matter. I see the use of the cis prefix as derisory shaming language by which SJWs arrogantly claim the understanding of gender as their own.
I don’t deign to speak for other people about issues of gender and sexuality. I’d appreciate it if I was given the same regard.
So what alternate word or phrase would you propose? “Real women” is clearly offensive. “Born women” isn’t precise - transgender women were born women as well, even if their doctors and parents didn’t realize it at the time. (Or, if you don’t believe that, then transmen were “born women,” so it still doesn’t work.) “Women with a vagina” doesn’t work, because after vaginoplasty, all women have vaginas.
I’m not particularly attached to the word “ciswomen” or “cisgender”, but it’s the only one I’m aware of that describes what it does. Please, tell me what other phrase you’d like us to use instead and we’ll consider it (or at least I will).
How many times have you had to deal with either of those two scenarios? Be honest.
If somebody sat down next to me on a bus when there were many other seats available I’d be creeped out as well. If I was in a unisex bathroom and a person who shouldn’t be in there came in and started glancing at my family jewels I’d also be creeped out.
But realistically, how many times has this actually happened to you? Is this a legitimate concern that you have to deal with on a day to day basis? No offense meant, but that sounds like a bit of a strawman concern to me.
I keep thinking about this, and I know you were all just waiting with bated breath to see what I would post.
On the one hand, yes, I would feel odd about a clear man violating social norms and entering the woman’s bathroom.
On the other hand, that’s what trans women feel like, going to the men’s room! It’s not the right place for them!
On the third hand, I would bet they get assaulted and beaten, and even raped a lot more than cis woman do - percentage wise anyway.
On the fourth hand, I am not going to see anything anyway, not in a regular bathroom with stalls.
On the fifth hand, in a dressing room, I am guessing that most trans women would choose to use a private stall anyway. I can’t imagine that anyone who has gone through the journey a transwoman has would be totally comfortable walking around nude as some women do.
On the sixth hand, I don’t walk around naked either.
On the seventh hand, I have often wished for unisex bathrooms. In some places I just resent the extremely long line for the woman’s bathroom while men are whipping in and out.
On the eigth hand (octopus!), I wouldn’t even care if a transwoman, one who passed, came in and peed standing up. Once you’re inside the stall I try not to pay attention to what is going on.
In the end, I absolutely think transwomen should be able to use our bathrooms, and that I probably have and haven’t even noticed. I don’t watch to see if people wash their hands either - I never understand busybodies in the bathroom. I think it should be the biggest place to keep your eyes to yourself.
ETA: Uh, I have had men come and sit next to me, ignoring all of the empty seats, many times in my life. Men - some men - are masters at acting creepy and violating your space and not respecting it.
I just don’t like being dismissed as “cisgendered”. Like that makes me less qualified to speak than anyone else.
And I’m not sure I even fit in that category, even though most of the people who use that prefix in a derogatory manner towards me would stereotype me and put me in that category.
Each to their own, as long as my lived experiences are given as much credence as that of any other human being.
I’ve had people sit down next to me on the bus when there were other seats available loads of times. Never had a guy come into the women’s bathroom when I was there. (Like I said upthread, once I was in a pub bathroom queue with someone who was either a trans woman or a male transvestite, but that’s the nearest.)
It isn’t an actual concern of mine at all; I never said it was. I was specifically replying to DrDeth’s question (paraphrased): ‘Why would you (not me) be bothered by a guy in the women’s bathroom, if you wouldn’t be bothered by a trans woman? Why is gender such a big deal?’
That’s why I quoted DrDeth’s post in mine. So it would be clear exactly what I was replying to.
I did not take it as being dismissive to be called cis. Look, nearly all of the time I go around and people think I am a woman, they know I am a woman, I never have that problem, I’m not in a situation where anyone has to differentiate, so no one has to call me cis.
In a discussion like this, however, it is useful to have a term that differentiates trans from cis. As Whynot says, I don’t want to say “regular” or “real” because both of those carry horrible connotations. I’ve been called not a “real” woman because I chose not to have children. It’s a hurtful thing to say and I’d rather not hurt, not even accidentally, especially people who have already been hurt by the entire world.
So here is at least one woman who isn’t offended at being called cis.
I wasn’t aware of asking you to answer for them. The question was, why would you feel uncomfortable with a man coming in the ladies’ room? And part of the reason would be the flagrant violation of social norms…rather like ignoring all of the empty seats and sitting right next to me on the bus.
That doesn’t mean all men do it or even a majority. It’s just that when it happens, our hackles rise and we are more wary. By years of unfortunate experience.
When we took our trip down to San Diego we stopped at a gas station for a pit stop. There were several motorcyclists there using the bathrooms, and as I went to find the women’s room I noticed a tall lanky guy entering (they were one-person restrooms). I figured no big deal and waited for him to come out (though I did give him a bit of a raised eyebrow then he emerged). When I went inside, I found that he’d left the seat up.
I’m not a big stickler about that (I don’t like it, but I don’t get my undies in a bunch over it), but dammit, when you’re using the women’s bathroom because you either can’t wait or are too impatient to, put it back in the proper configuration for women when you’re done!
Yeah, the whole seat-up down thing, big deal. Too many ladies will ‘hover” and thus pee all over the seat. And, yes, there are a very very few men who don’t put the seat up and thus dribble on the seat. But the female “hover-ers’ are worse by far.
That’s the thing–I don’t get too worked up over it when it’s at somebody’s house (even mine, though the spouse never leaves the seat up and I’ve never asked him not to, so I guess he was trained at home before I got him :D) or in a unisex restroom. But if you’re a guy using a single-toilet women’s restroom at a gas station, I expect you to acknowledge that you’re using a women’s restroom by returning it to the default woman-based configuration when you’re done.
If I were using a men’s restroom in a pinch and the seat was up when I got there, I’d put it back up when I left. It’s just courtesy.
I’ve had guys sit down next to me, despite empty seats all over the place, too many times to count. And then they usually “accidentally” bump into me. And yes, sitting down right next to someone despite empty spaces is a red flag that this person isn’t willing to respect other people’s boundaries. When someone gets into another person’s space like that, usually the first person is looking to cop a feel or pick a pocket. Sometimes the first person is just poorly socialized, like the little boy who wanted to watch women use the toilet in the women’s room.
On the other hand, I’ve never had someone who was clearly male come into the women’s room unless it was the janitor, who knocked, then opened the door a crack and called in. I’ve seen a few people who might be in transition in the women’s room, but since they were minding their own business, I minded my own business.
Do you have any evidence at all for this claim? What, exactly, is derisory about it? Why should someone described as “cis gendered” feel shame about being described that way? Can you give an example of someone using “cis” as an insult? I’ve never seen that, and am not entirely sure how it would even work.
Apropos of the general discussion, cis is no more disrespectful than trans, it’s just unusual and somewhat awkward. I use it ONLY in written form; in public, we call you “g-girls” or “g-guys”. Which is probably not much better…
As I’ve tried to say repeatedly, the rule of transness is you ONLY use the restroom as you are presenting or are legally registered as. This means that even if you are on full hormones etc., if you’re dressed male and don’t have a male ID, then you do NOT go into the women’s room. This is a convention which few transsexual women violate, and if and when it happens, it’s not just cis-women who are unhappy…they get talked to, about, or even shunned by the trans community. Among many reasons, we simply do not want the negative publicity. But more than anything else, it’s just gauche.
Although there is no Trans Pope in Denmark who issues these bulls, it’s a general convention which to my knowledge is used world-wide.
I know some transgender people and genderqueer people use whatever damn restroom they want, regardless of how they are dressed. I don’t agree with that.
I didn’t know anything about handshake rape was attributed to her until Guinastasia informed me es post facto. The latter part of the above is a big problem and I feel she was either incredibly insensitive or delusional.
True story…as part of the 110% acceptance my company gave to me, they built a single bathroom on the first floor, a complete facility for one with sink and toilet etc. For use by transgender persons only, and to gain access to it you need a key.
Thus far, after 6 successful months on the job, I am still the only person of thousands who has a key. When I was a little girl in the 1970’s, a frequent meme in the sitcoms was having a “key to the executive washroom.” And now, lol, as a transsexual woman, I have my key to a private washroom! Even the CEO of the company doesn’t have that!
I’ve used it a few times, to see what it was like. Since I was accepted totally from my first hour as a girl at work, I’ve never once felt a need to use it. It’s nice, clean, very quiet, and totally private. I have a plan to decorate it with some cheap items from Pier 1, potpourri, a magazine rack, some old travel posters, maybe a Philodendron…etc.
This. More women born with vaginas get beat up and raped by hetro men than any other group on the planet. Part of being a woman is being vigilant about your safety in public spaces. Quite bluntly we (average women) don’t have a way of magically knowing if the pre-operative transsexual in front of us is mentally a fellow sister or a serial rapist with an interesting kink unless the pre-op shows the basic courtesy of acting like a woman in the restroom in order to reassure all the other woman that they are not in any danger. Try to use the throne like a woman would and for the love of all that’s holy wait until you get into a stall to adjust your balls! Ever heard a group of elderly women start shrieking in fear because they have discovered there’s a man in their restroom. It’s not pleasant.
Too many ladies will ‘hover” and thus pee all over the seat. And, yes, there are a very very few men who don’t put the seat up and thus dribble on the seat. But the female “hover-ers’ are worse by far.