If I don’t consider a trial to be disciplinary, then I don’t see a contradiction.
Where it says “disciplinary” in the last post it should say “punishment.”
(Ah, so my military experience does have some bearing in this thread!)
Yep, perhaps a call for clarification would’ve helped a tad.
As it is, “discipline” and “punishment” (as in “Company-level Discipline is Non-Judicial Punishment”) are pretty well used interchangeably by us military types.
Here are two possible outcomes:
[ul][li]Pilot made the error through carelessness - found guilty at court-martial or non-judicial hearing officer determines pilot was careless. Result: Fine/Forfeiture/Reduction in Rank/& or Confinement.[/li][li]Pilot did not make an error - Article 32 hearing officer determines no hearing, judicial or non-judicial, required.[/ul][/li]
Note: if it’s determined that the pilot made an error, then I really think he should get some sort of punishment. After all, the commanding officer of the submarine who killed nine members of the crew of the Ehime Maru got what is essentially no punishment at all: Permission to retire in current rank, Suspended reduction in rank, Suspended forfeiture of pay, Letter of reprimand, and no confinement. Heck, that means that he got to retire and lost no stripes and no cash!
So are we on the same page, in the same book, or still in completely different shelves in the library now?
Hey, sometimes bombs miss their targets. No sense crying about it. The only reason this is an issue is because the media have portrayed war as this sterile, remote controled, laser guided videgame. The fact of the matter is that people get killed in war. No matter how bloodless we try to make it with smart weapons, at some point a kid is going to chase his ball onto the wrong road and get hit by a Tomahawk. Shit happens. There’s no sense following our army with another army of lawyers. Will our ground troops have to sight a release form every time a shell leaves the gun barrel?
As a resident of NYC, you’ll excuse me if I don’t shed a tear for these people. Maybe they don’t all support the Taliban, but I’m pretty sure they don’t support us all that much either. I guess we’ll see.
Look, there are procedures that the military dictates that must be followed. One of those would be the double-checking of the coordinates entered into a targeting system on a bomb. Not following the correct procedures has long been frowned upon in the military.
Bottom line: according to the information released by the Navy, the cause of the accident was that someone was not paying enough attention to what they were doing, and disregarded the procedures that the Navy had dictated for how to ensure that his job is done safely and correctly. If the same error had cost American lives, you’d have no problem with punishing him.
Also, I believe that most discipline in the military is in the form of non-judicial punishment (NJP), which does not involve lawyers.
I’ll look into info on the Vincennes incident, and if I get around to firing up the other computer, I’ll post a case study on the event that I wrote for a class a couple years ago. I think the medals were given because George Bush told the UN that the captain had acted appropriately before the matter was investigated, and committed the US to that position.
Knowledge always has bearing. It just does not matter to me how it was aquired.
We are probably still in different shelves. As long as there wasn’t gross negligence or specific intent involved, then I am loathe to punish a pilot putting his life on the line for me.
Regardless, I regret the hostility I projected in this thread.
**msmith537
**
I’m in Jersey and the skyline is part of my everyday life. I have the average suburban NJ life where a large part of our friends and family work in the city. I know how this has effected me, I can only imagine what it must be like to live in it.
I know that the last large earthquake in California (the one that broke the highway overpasses) didn’t stay front and center in the news here, and Hurricane Andrew didn’t become a day to day part of our lives in the NE. I have wondered if the impact of this is a little less as you get further away from the point of impacts.
I recognize the possibility that this event is too personal for me to be objective, but I’m willing for almost anything to happen in order to stop the terrorists.
It seems to me that JDAMs are usually pre-programmed with GPS coordinates.
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_military.jsp?view=story&id=news/mkabl1013.xml
My personal opinion is that following the proper procedures can minimize, but not completely eliminate, civilian casualties. I’m not an expert in military law, but it seems that the determination to punish in this case should be based on whether these procedures were carried out correctly, not on the fact that innocent people were killed and injured.
If the procedures are carried out correctly, and civilian casualties still occur, it is not the fault of the pilot or the weapon-loaders.
I deeply regret that innocent people have been killed. I even regret that we have to kill enemy soldiers, although I realize that it’s necessary. I don’t think that’s inconsistent with anything I said above.
“These people” had just as much to do with the deaths in NYC as you did. Does that mean you are a legitimate target?
Why is it so hard to accept the FACT that some people in Afghanistan are innocent? Bin Laden and the Taliban certainly aren’t, but the people they’ve been terrorizing there for years are.
Freedom,
I draw your attention back to that cop stipulated above. Isn’t he putting his life on the line for all of us also? Remember, too, that intentional dereliction (along the lines of “Hey, I might be off a few hundred yards, but what the heck, I ain’t going to shed any tears for these people”***) can be punished to a greater extent than incompetence in battle. For the latter, the pilot would lose his qualification as a pilot. You can imagine what the former would get him.
***I realize that nobody’s said that, but I use it as an example.
I would treat the pilot exactly the same as the cop. I can’t see any place where I have indicated ifferently.
MontyFreedom Python
But an argument isn’t simply the automatic gainsaying of what the other guy says…
Yes, it is.
No,it isn’t.
Yes, it is.
Ad infinitum, ad nauseum…
Nor is it posting the same thing three times in a row.
Apparently to them I am a target. Does it matter if I am a ‘legitimate’ one? It’s a shame that some innocent people have to get killed, but the lives of Americans are worth a lot more to me than the lives of Afghans.
I don’t know all the details about this incident and I don’t particular care to research it. I say, if someone screwed up programming a missle back at the base, then yes, that is grounds for disciplinary action. If the deaths resulted because the pilot released his bombs half a second too late than no, that is called “missing”. It happens in combat.
Yes, it is!
To the terrorists you are a target. To the people of Afghanistan, you know the people who are being brutalized by the Taliban and al-Queda, you are not. To the people of Afghanistan, you very well may be a citizen of the country that’s saving them from brutality in their own land.
In the scheme of things, yes. Especially when one’s talking about a war in the modern era. There are such things as war crimes tribunals, after all.
Agreed. But the idea is to ensure the military people doing the killing/destruction of targets (buildings, etc.) do so competently so as to MINIMIZE the killing of civilians.
Then you are a bigot. More specifically, a racist bigot. What other races and nationalities do not qualify as “worth just as much” as your favorite race/ethnicity/nationality?
I prefer to think that we are all God’s children and thus are part of the one human race. YMMV, especially if you’re bigoted.
Ah, so that’s the comfort zone for your prejudice, then is it? “Let’s not learn too much and then find out we were wrong!”
And if that someone back at the base was the pilot? Anyway, the Sailors “back at the base” (on the ship), are under just as much pressure to get the job done on time as the pilot is. Kind of silly for the pilot to launch off the ship without the weapons attached to the jet, hey.
Oh, and saying “it happens in combat” is not a magical, 100% cure-all salve. Lot of stuff used “to happen in combat” (rape, murder, pillage, etc.) until modern society decided that stuff is what’s known as wrong. Yes, it still happens in places, thus the current war crimes tribunal.
Oh, and in case you missed it above: I did call you a bigot. The reason I called you a bigot is because you just stipulated a varying scale of worth for human beings based on nothing more than their nationalites. That’s known as you being a bigot.
My, aren’t we self-rightous. First of all, a person can place a value judgement on others without being a “bigot”. Second, “Afghan” is not a race. It is a mixture of a number of ehthic groups. Third, I certainly place a higher value on my family, friends, and countrymen/women.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Monty *
Ah, so that’s the comfort zone for your prejudice, then is it? “Let’s not learn too much and then find out we were wrong!”
[QUOTE]
No, I just don’t have any interest researching the specifics on this particular incident. That’s the Navy’s job. It is simply my opinion that if the problem was in preparation for the mission (as in programming the wrong coordinates) then someone should be punished. It would be the same if someone forgot a bolt on the aircraft or any similar life threatening situation. That is negligence. If the pilot simply missed (a mile doesn’t seem that big a distance at 700 mph) or the wind caught it, bad luck.
I see. Does the sailor on board the carrier sourrounded by its battlegroup feel the same pressure as the pilot who has to fly through flak, tracer and SAM fire? Now I’m not a military man, but it seems to me that there would be a lot more pressure on you when bullets are whizing past your head. If the maintenace guy screws up, he gets yelled at. If the pilot screws up, he gets to eject into a town full of armed people who may be agitated about being bombed.
Obviously the rigors of combat are not an excuse to rape and murder. All I’m saying is that it is unrealistic to expect that civilians won’t accidently get killed in a war.
Holy shit!! You did call me a bigot! Yes, I read it the first time, jackass. See, I can resort to petty name calling just as easily as you (or in your case, I guess it would be Petty Name Calling, 1st Class).
Msmith537, I would have to agree that your posts, if not outright bigoted, do sound at least suspicious. Perhaps you would like to clarify them, instead of reorting to personal insults for which you will be berated anyway.
Abe,
Thanks for the posting just above. You helped me title the following thread correctly:
Monty berates the bigot, msmith537.
Yes, that thread is in The BBQ Pit.
I am simply biased in favor of America and Americans. After all, this is where I live. When something bad happens in another country, I feel bad about it, but it does not have same personal impact. If for example, terrorists blew up the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, I’m sure it would not have the same impact as the WTC for most New Yorkers. So in other words, I don’t want bad things to happen, but given the choice I’d rather they happen somewhere else. If that makes me a bigot that fine.