David B, I'd like to discuss something with you.

The BBQ Pit
1

In this thread, I recieved a fairly stern rebuke. I deserved it, because stuff like that is not appropriate in Great Debates.

However, the jerk I was responding to stated that I was a “murderer”. He didn’t imply it, he said it outright.

That, sir, is disgusting. I’m an American doing my part to help this country the best way that I can, and neither I nor my fellow military members deserve to be spit on like that. Yet you warn me and not this guy?

That disgusts me. How about I call you a murderer, eh? How about I attack your character like that? If I did, I’d be out of here in a heartbeat. You know it and I know it.

The mere fact that this even has to be addressed astounds me. How is that at all acceptable, anywhere? You may find it to be so, but I sure as hell don’t.

It’s your house, it’s your rules, so do whatever. As for me, if he had said that to my face, I don’t know what I would have done. I wouldn’t have bought him a beer, that’s for sure. I just think it’s important to realize that what’s said here isn’t anonymous. I met my wife here, I know a lot of people from here, and people need to watch what they say, especially when accusing someone of a truly heinous crime.

So, where do we go from here? That’s entirely up to you, David B. I’ve had my say. I admit that what I said was wrong, I’d like to see my other grievance addressed.

Thank you.

2

Airman, how soon they forget. My husband went through that during the Vietnam war. I think “The Jerk” must be very young and idealistic to think that blanket statements like that are part of a mature discussion on war. Like I always said, you don’t have to be fond of the war, or the government officials that get us into one, but don’t take it out on the soldiers. I for one don’t want the U.S. involved in this war YET, but my hope is that all of you who are doing the dirty work come home safe. Be well.

3

What’s really sad is that in the linked thread, David B. warned Airman Doors for retaliating verbally after being called a murderer, yet he said nothing to the person who wrote the original insult. C’mon, calling a guy a murderer for serving his country gets no reprimand? Disgusting.

4

[…raising hand…]

I bet I know what the dodge will be. He wasn’t calling you a murderer directly; he was calling airmen in general murderers. Neverming that, by modus ponens, it logically follows that you, as an airman, have been called a murderer. It’s a cousin to the you-can-curse-God-'cause-He’s-famous line of reasoning.

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My problem with this is that murder has a certain connotation to it. Yeah, military men occasionally have to kill people. If some young idealist wants to blanket all killings as murder, that’s his prerogative. But a “murderer” is a person with a certain sort of intent, a guilty mind. I don’t think that the hundreds of thousands of young men and women who join our armed forces are that sort of people, I don’t think they could ever be “murderers” no matter what they do. They’re people motivated by a desire to serve their country. They’re doing what I’d like to do, but am prevented from doing by that goddamned 46 pounds sitting in my gut.

This is the way some people treated returning veterans of 'Nam, and it was just as wrong then as it is now. Have some room in your ideals for the motivations of the common man, the beneficient desire to do right in this world, how they see it.

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I think Lib nailed it. He didn’t fling the insult at you specifically; he flung it at a group of people which you happen to belong to.

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His statement falls under how we can insult other members on this board. If you present evidence that someone is a racist you can call him a racist. If you present evidence that someone is a murder you can call him a murderer. He may not have many supporters in his idea that killing civilians in a war makes you a murderer, but he did do it the right way.

I think its fine to call a guy a murderer for serving his country if it fits. Because serving ones country does not make a person any less of a murderer.

Not to say that Airman is a murderer, but soldiers are responsible for their actions.

8

Dodge?? Seems to me that I’ve routinely seen folks call “liberals” horrible names, folks who are in favor of abortion rights are described as condoning murder, people who abhor the death penalty get saddled with the blood of anyone who is subsequently killed by a released convict, conservatives certainly get their fair shake of exponential venom.

and before you get all riled, I also agree that as a general sentiment, suggesting that those in uniform should routinely be considered murderers is abhorant. (I will reserve the right to specify certain individuals, such as Calley, Milosovich and his ilk, those at Nurenburg etc.)

But it is actually not the same as a ‘direct insult to another poster’ as the phrase is used here. MHO.

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Sterra, I agree…especially when you’re talking about Hitler’s henchmen and the like. But this is a different issue. And if you don’t think that soldiers are fucking horrified by some of the shit they have to do, think again. War sucks…there’s no two ways about it. But they are not murderers in this sense. There may be some soldiers who murder (Lt. Calley, etc.), but soldiers in general are not murderers.

Back to the gist of the thread, it is rather odd that the offender wasn’t chastised for his antagonistic choice of words. I’ve seen people banned for what I consider much lesser infractions.

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Sterra, William Calley was a murderer. My uncle, who was in Vietnam for two tours of 13 months, was not. People die in war. The question is, were they killed as combatants, or were they murdered as noncombatants, or were they killed accidentally simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Unless you have just cause to say something like that, you don’t say it. Under no circumstances did he have just cause.

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Heh. Simul-post, Airman! My first!

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Yeah, it’s the same as a direct insult. Modus ponens is just as valid in Great Debates as it is anywhere.

p -> q

p

therefore, q

All airmen are murderers

You’re an airman

Therefore…

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Lib - however, routinely for example, december makes egregiously offensive statements about liberals, and even tho I found it horifyingly offensive, he wasn’t chastized.

Nor was Wildest Bill who made outrageously offensive comments about lawyers more than once.

14

I agree that the proposition that all airmen are murderers is foolish and insulting.

I’m not sure that’s exactly what Colinito67 meant. It’s hard to tell because that wasn’t the most eloquent post I’ve ever seen. Still, although (s)he seemed clearly to be strongly opposed to preemptive action and quite bothered by the aspect of deliberate civilian deaths, ISTM the intended subject of “murderers” was not necessarily “USAF” and its attendent airmen, but could’ve been the military/government establishment which plans such an assault (which would not include the people who actually carry it out).

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Yeah, but if he does it this way:

You’re a liberal, eh? Well, liberals are murderers.

You’ve just been called a murderer.

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Lib - the quote Airman notes does not do that, of course.

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I thought he meant that members of the Air Force who would

were murderers. In other words, that the US was planning to purposely target civilians, and that anyone who did that would be a murderer.

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Like I said, it’s unclear. Perhaps that (rather than a dodge on DavidB’s part) is why the other poster wasn’t chastised.

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Yes it does, Wring.

It ain’t rocket science. :smiley:

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As a matter of fact, it looks more like Colinito67 was saying “we” (who are “going to deliberately target civilians”) are “murderers” collectively. The poster included him or her self in the indictment.