Clarification of the purpose of ATMB and closing threads

[mhendo]

@Idle_Thoughts

Because it had already been talked about, across three topics, and didn’t show any signs of slowing down or coming to a resolve. With every solution offered, there was always a group of posters unhappy with it and arguing against it.

I’m not going to argue about the warning, but your argument here is at the absolute heart of almost every discussion about ATMB.

What is lost or diminished, and who is harmed or inconvenienced, by leaving the thread open? Is there some shortage of electrons or server space that i missed? If you’re going to spend three months discussing the issue in the mod loop, and with the admins, why not let the members spend that same time period discussing it among themselves, if that’s what they want? Treat it like any other goddamn thread: leave it open, and moderate people who break the rules.

How hard is that? Is there some congenital disposition that compels you guys to close these threads when they’re doing no harm? Is it merely an exercise in the display of authority, or is there some actual rationale behind your action?

[armedmonkey]

This is a thing that I lot of posters fear that the mods don’t get. Discussion has to be open. I know that this is just a message board, and doesn’t matter worth a damn in the scheme of things, but it’s the SDMB. My local sewer and water authority operates with greater sunshine laws than this place. It’s not trying to fight ignorance, it’s just trying to make sure indoor plumbing works.

The irony kills me. The people that run a site whose express purpose is to shine a light don’t understand sunshine.

[Ed_Zotti]

Cheezit, will you quit complaining? This is a fricking message board. It’s easy for me to swoop in and make some grand pronouncement because I’m the administrator - I get to decide if and when to create new forums or what have you. The mods can’t do this, and during the often lengthy periods when I’m working on other things, they get driven to distraction by constant questions of the “Daddy, are we there yet?” variety and they tell you to stop asking, at which point the questions become, “WHY do I have to stop asking?” Give it a rest, OK?

To answer the next question: I’ll get the new forum up soon. Soon = some time between now and when the sun explodes. Got a busy week here.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@mhendo

I’m not going to argue about the warning, but your argument here is at the absolute heart of almost every discussion about ATMB.

What is lost or diminished, and who is harmed or inconvenienced, by leaving the thread open? Is there some shortage of electrons or server space that i missed? If you’re going to spend three months discussing the issue in the mod loop, and with the admins, why not let the members spend that same time period discussing it among themselves, if that’s what they want? Treat it like any other goddamn thread: leave it open, and moderate people who break the rules.

How hard is that? Is there some congenital disposition that compels you guys to close these threads when they’re doing no harm? Is it merely an exercise in the display of authority, or is there some actual rationale behind your action?

Your argument is slightly negated by the fact that most ATMB threads stay open. Yes, a lot are closed, but the majority don’t have to be. So if a topic is closed, then the staff member who closed it must have had their reasons, however much you may agree or disagree with them, and usually they say the reason in the closing post.

If you want to use those topics as an example, I’d PM the mod who closed it and ask them why or talk with them about it…but really, that advice is good for any ATMB that is closed.
Speaking only for myself, I know I’d certainly be open with discussing the possibility of reopening threads or, if not, at least trying to explain my position better.

Anyway, I’ve given the reasoning. You don’t have to like or agree with it, but I can’t really say it any better.

[mhendo]

@Idle_Thoughts

So if a topic is closed, then the staff member who closed it must have had their reasons, however much you may agree or disagree with them, and usually they say the reason in the closing post.

Wow, this post receives my nomination for “Non-Answer of the Year.” It’s basically a tautology, whereby whatever we say is a reason, is a reason, so you can’t accuse us of closing threads without giving a reason. By your logic, a mod saying “I’m closing this thread because the moon is in aquarius” would satisfy the demand for a reason. I’d say that this sounds ridiculous, except it seems to be standard operating procedure around here.

In the threads you linked to, above, the reason given for closing the thread was basically, “We are discussing this, and i am therefore closing the thread.”

But that is not actually a reason for closing the thread. A reason for closing the thread would explain the connection between the two things: that is, why does the fact that the moderators and admins are discussing the issue preclude the presence of a thread where members can also discuss the issue?

Hell, on a message board where mods and admins felt any desire whatsoever to be responsive to the people who are the actual content providers and financial supporters of the site, the most logical line of reasoning might go something like this: “Some people clearly want to split the Game Room, and others don’t. Why don’t we leave the thread open during our discussion, so we can see some of the arguments for and against from the perspective of the users themselves? They might raise issues that we hadn’t thought of, and we can then balance those issues against things like cost, technical resources, convenience, etc., etc.”

But on the SDMB, the first response when mods and admins are going to discuss and issue is to close down the only avenue of member feedback on the issue. This way of running the site, which i think of as Ostrich Mode, confounds all common sense.

[armedmonkey]

@Ed_Zotti

To answer the next question: I’ll get the new forum up soon. Soon = some time between now and when the sun explodes. Got a busy week here.

Wait, what? The sun is going to explode in a week? Dude, I got to start packing.

[Frank]

@Ed_Zotti

Cheezit, will you quit complaining? This is a fricking message board.

Yes, it’s a message board. It’s a message board that still has active posters from 16 years ago. Point out to me what other message boards have lasted so long, and despite schisms and rebellions still have such an active base.

I understand you’re in a hard place. You’re now ruled by a major media empire. Your budget has been cut–to the extent that Jerry cannot spend an hour to degrade the horrible default VB smilies as he did every other VB upgrade–to the extent that you can no longer pay TubaDiva to take care of stuff like Weird Earl’s–even to the extent that your unpaid experienced and skilled administrators are now unable to perform the tasks they were willing and happy to do. It sucks, Ed, I understand that.

But, even though there are people who will always complain for the sake of complaining, who get off on and enjoy complaining, you seem to miss the fact that many members of the SDMB complain because there is a reason to do so.

Complaints about moderators are common. Many are unjustified; many are not. I will state, quite frankly, that in my experience the “circle the wagons” attitude existed even in the moderator loop. When a moderator fucked up, you were the only one willing to say so, and that was rare. The moderator loop did not offer new moderators constructive criticism, nor did it offer much support beyond, “They’re just complaining.” Other than Tuba, the experienced moderators I most respected and relied on for advice extremely rarely offered me a critical view of my actions. (Until I was not longer a moderator. ) This has apparently not changed.

In the particular instance of the Games forum, it’s obvious–it’s been obvious for months–that a change in the Games Forum is forthcoming. It’s hardly complaining for people to ask when it will actually happen. It’s something that could have been done in five minutes by an experienced administrator; if you or Jerry don’t have time, that’s cool, let Tuba do it, or CKDexterHaven do it, or Marley do it, or somebody. That the corporate overlords have removed all powers from those administrators does not bode well.

I really want the SDMB to continue; I love it! I’ve been an active poster since 2002, with no gaps. This is the best message board I have ever particapated on. It’s constantly been a changing board. Even when I started lurking, people were complaing about the changes. Yet an awful lot of those people are still here, and I’m still here. But, hell, I’m worried about the path I see it taking. I’m very worried.

[Enginerd]

@Ed_Zotti

Cheezit, will you quit complaining? This is a fricking message board. It’s easy for me to swoop in and make some grand pronouncement because I’m the administrator - I get to decide if and when to create new forums or what have you. The mods can’t do this, and during the often lengthy periods when I’m working on other things, they get driven to distraction by constant questions of the “Daddy, are we there yet?” variety and they tell you to stop asking, at which point the questions become, “WHY do I have to stop asking?” Give it a rest, OK?

To answer the next question: I’ll get the new forum up soon. Soon = some time between now and when the sun explodes. Got a busy week here.

Look dude, your problem is with Idle Thoughts and not armedmonkey - the mod is the one who said on December 1 that the decision was made and would be up and running, give or take a week. So where the fuck is it?

If you don’t want people to complain, then deliver them the shit you and your minions promise them.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@mhendo

In the threads you linked to, above, the reason given for closing the thread was basically, “We are discussing this, and i am therefore closing the thread.”

But that is not actually a reason for closing the thread.

I’ve given the reason for it, it’s below:

@Idle_Thoughts

Because it had already been talked about, across three topics, and didn’t show any signs of slowing down or coming to a resolve. With every solution offered, there was always a group of posters unhappy with it and arguing against it.

You may not agree with or like that reason, but it’s the reason.

@Enginerd

Look dude, your problem is with Idle Thoughts and not armedmonkey - the mod is the one who said on December 1 that the decision was made and would be up and running, give or take a week. So where the fuck is it?

If you don’t want people to complain, then deliver them the shit you and your minions promise them.

Where in the post did I say it would be up and running soon?
I said the discussion was over and a majority decision on what to do had pretty much been reached and to expect an announcement about it soon. An announcement. Which was made. Yeah, it was a bit longer than just a week later due to people getting busy for the holidays, but it was still announced. You seem to be confusing “me promising an announcement is coming” with “me promising the forum is coming”.

[armedmonkey]

I would just like us to take a moment to watch this relaxing nature video. Cute, aren’t they?

[tomndebb]

Caught in a misstatement, you choose to imply that the staff is weaseling because you got it wrong?
Of course.

[Enginerd]

Words mean things. When someone says there’ll be an announcement in a week and it takes more than three weeks, they lose credibility. When somebody says the forum will be up in “a few days” and it takes 24 days (and counting), they lose credibility.

I made a misstatement about who promised what, but the fact is that the board administration has repeatedly given timelines for this thing and not met them. Would you be happier with sloths than with weasels?

[mhendo]

@Idle_Thoughts

You may not agree with or like that reason, but it’s the reason.

You keep parroting that line. It’s working great for you.

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@jtgain

I thought one of the purposes of ATMB was for discussion of moderator actions. So, why have the last two threads that discuss moderator actions been summarily closed?

Is this thread about just those two threads or all ATMB threads? I’ve been thinking about an answer I’d give for the downsides of all ATMB threads being left open, but I might be off-track if you’re just asking about the last two threads closed before this thread was created.

[Crotalus]

@Ed_Zotti

Cheezit, will you quit complaining? This is a fricking message board. It’s easy for me to swoop in and make some grand pronouncement because I’m the administrator - I get to decide if and when to create new forums or what have you. The mods can’t do this, and during the often lengthy periods when I’m working on other things, they get driven to distraction by constant questions of the “Daddy, are we there yet?” variety and they tell you to stop asking, at which point the questions become, “WHY do I have to stop asking?” Give it a rest, OK?

To answer the next question: I’ll get the new forum up soon. Soon = some time between now and when the sun explodes. Got a busy week here.

Ed, your customer relations instincts are truly amazing. Well done.

[PlainJain]

@Ed_Zotti

Cheezit, will you quit complaining? This is a fricking message board.

I’m wondering if your definition of message board is different than mine.

[running_coach]

@PlainJain

I’m wondering if your definition of message board is different than mine.

His has lasers.

[DrDeth]

@Idle_Thoughts

Here’s one. (“Please sit tight”)

Here’s two. (“please let the topic lie without starting any new ATMB threads pro or con.”)

And here was three… told to you specifically before it happened. (“You had said in a previous PM to me that you would continue to open threads in ATMB about this subject, contrary to moderator instructions …” “That would be abuse of the purpose of ATMB, and would justify a warning.”)

(bolding mine)
Three times posters were told not to make any new topics, and one of them was to you specifically… so…I’m not really sure why you’re surprised you got a warning when you did it.

Yep, and in fact it’s such a minor issue, I could care less. Thus constant harping on it is likely counter-productive. armedmonkey, you were in the wrong here.

I actually now hope they *never *split off the game threads.

[BlankSlate]

Dear Mr. Ed

Delegate, Boss Man, delegate.

You don’t need a computer science degree to do something as trivial as making a new forum. I’m sure one of the volunteer mods can handle it. Give them a super complicated password and leave dealing with the unwashed masses to your underlings.

[Musicat]

@BlankSlate

Dear Mr. Ed

Delegate, Boss Man, delegate…

Where is Wilburrr when you need him?