I’ve had some e-mail correspondence with a mod on this issue, and although I respect the “English only” rule, I would like to see the guidelines expanded somewhat.
Obviously, there are lots of non-English words and phrases which are in various stages of being absorbed into English. There are side comments in languages other than English which are very important to understanding other vital issues (several threads on the meaning of “jihad” spring to mind, and I’m sure there are many others). People who are trying to learn foreign languages or understand foreign-language material post questions all the time. Those are just a couple of situations off the top of my head where it would be sensible to make posts involving foreign-language words or phrases.
So could there be some sort of de minimis exception? (See? There’s a foreign-language phrase right there! I’m sorry; I couldn’t help it! Please don’t ban me!)
This has been an observed rule for quite some time and it makes sense. I remeber some guy was run out of the board because he wanted to conduct his personal threads in Spanish. But, come on, nobody is going to object to a foreign expression or phrase or quotation which legitimately serves to add to the post in English. It is another thing altogether to post largely in another language which most of us cannot understand.
**sailor, ** I know, but what can I say? I’ve worked with lawyers for too long, so I like to see rules spelled out clearly and in nauseating detail. I, too, am annoyed by long posts in Dutch, which I cannot read.
And yes, what may be common sense to some is apparently not common sense to others, so I think a more specific rule could benefit many.
Well, the poster in question was calling it Dutch, so as a non-Flemish/non-Dutch speaker, I pretty much had to take his word for it.
Besides, a Belgian former co-worker tells me that when books are translated for the European market, there generally aren’t separate Dutch and Flemish translations done. Far be it for me to judge whether one is a dialect of the other; that would definitely be a separate thread.
Simple accomodation: if you type an entire post in Flemish, translate it into English underneath. Yes, that means more typing. Seems fair, given the percentage of Flemish speaking posters on this message board. Guuud? Or whatever.
**Beagle, ** I asked that very question in my e-mail to the mods, and was told that they did not have the resources to police foreign-language posts, even ones with translations alongside. I’m just trying to get some clarification on what the dividing line is. Is one word OK? One sentence, with translation? Does it depend on topic or context?
It’s recently come to the fore because of one particular (fucking annoying) poster.
That poster claimed mastery of many languages, and was called on to demonstrate. Which he or she may or may not have done, I’m not sufficiently fluent in those languages to judge.
The same poster claimed lots of other shit too, and was called on that as well. In two pit threads.
Most people have what we would label as “common sense”, because that’s what it is: a shared sense of sensibility.
Some lack that common sense.
IMHO, the new rule is something that can be applied in exceptional circumstances, without any claim being made that there was no forewarning.
Actually, it also came to the fore not so long ago when bayonet1976 started, at my request, a thread on colorful cursing in Spanish (and he added some lovely Cuban pickup lines as well, which IM Spanish-speaking O were even more hilarious, colorful, and linguistically interesting than the curses). He provided excellent translations with each item, and the thread was closed anyway.
Again, what is the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable levels of foreign language use?
Dunno. It seems threads asking for clarifications of the rules never go very far. The answer is usually along the lines of “when in doubt, ask first” and “we’ll decide on a case by case basis using discretion and common sense”.
Linkie linkie?
A while ago there was a college student who wanted to play around with a German thread for practice and Coldfire agreed to let it run as he has enough German to be able to competently moderate the thread (which at points devolved into Dutch, too) (yes, I said "devolved, heh). The thread in question was mostly things like “I took 2 years of German in College and once called my host-mother a currywurst, accidentally” with nothing inflammatory. So case by case?
That’s what we’re sticking with. We’re not run by lawyers here – just some people trying to do the best we can.
Eva think for a fraction of a second here. Do you really think we’re gonna ban someone for using a Latin term? Or even an occasional Aloha or whatever is called for by the spirit of the thread?
Shit, we’re just trying to read the damn message board. I’m sorry you have such a dim opinion of us.
Manny, your ruling has a certain je ne sais quoi about it, with a Weltschmerz of unappreciation thrown in.
Too many of us, I fear live in terror of “accidentally violating the rules” and facing the wrath of the Evil Mod. Cabal – when the fact of the matter is that we have but one fundamental rule, and the stuff Ed and Arnold have posted in ATMB is merely Talmudic commentary on that.
I figure that my rights to express myself on this board are delimited by what you and the rest of the staff are prepared to allow, and that that, across the breadth and wealth of human knowledge (and things that only Cecil knows as yet), furnishes quite enough room for an intresting, educational, and enjoyable visit.
Right, you’re not going to ban me for the two foreign phrases in my first paragraph. And if I started a GQ thread on what the idiomatic phrases corresponding to “Have a nice day” as a social nicety, you’re going to rely on the decency of members (along with self-policing on the jerks by other members and the handful of foreign languages you folks happen to know) to assume that the phrase in Georgian or Estonian is not actually “The Chicago Reader felches Stalin’s grandmother” or some such.
Likewise, I questioned whether a comment made in GD in my direction by another member was a rule violation, and was assured by Gaudere in e-mail that it was not – no criticism of me for asking, just a judgment call on her behalf. And I think by and large we’re prepared to accept this sort of judgment-based evaluation.
But many of us wish to stay within the lines, and wonder whether something marginal is over the line or not. And that, kind sir, is probably the reason for these sorts of threads.
If I may translate your irked response into a calmer tone:
“Hey, we’re members just like you – we’re not going to ban a regular for accidentally doing something we consider outside the rules, just make clear to them that it was and why, so it won’t be repeated. Likewise, we’ll give some slack to a newbie who may not have grasped the rules yet. It’s people who willfully and intentionally push the limits that piss us off. And it hurts when people think of us as cops eager to ban people – we’re not homicide detectives, just traffic cops, trying to make sure people drive safely on the boards.” Is that fairly close?
I must be psychic, because I was under the impression that English-only was already a rule here. Does this mean I could have been posting in Esperanto last week, if only I’d known?
With all due respect, Polycarp, I’ll choose my own tone, thanks.
Look, this isn’t some rank newbie posting this thread – this person has been around for over 18 months and amassed 2,600 posts. If it’s not apparent by now that we’re not sitting gleefully on the ban button waiting for a minor infraction then there’s a serious problem.
So. Let’s get to it and maybe clear up a few misconceptions.
This moderator gig is mostly pretty fun, but here’s a list of some of the things that well and truly suck about it:
Making up new rules because someone has decided to be an asshole (look for next week’s new rule, “Don’t give people shit just because they changed their username,” probably coming to a message board near you).
Banning people. Yes, even people who really, truly have it coming. (There’s an exception – banning one particular asshole doesn’t suck except to the extent that it slows the boards to do it right.)
Being perceived as sitting on that ban button with evil intent.
Constantly reviewing, revising, narrowing, expanding and re-interpreting rules because someone has decided to be an asshole or because someone is paranoid about our itchy trigger fingers.
Constantly being called on to do the above.
The thousands (yes, thousands) of emails expended on the most troublesome 1% of our userbase.
Reintrepreting the “rulings” of mod-wannabes.
And you know what? Yeah, sometimes one or more of these things annoys me to the point where I post about it.
I used to worry that I’d somehow accidentally break a rule or I’d post something that could be misinterpreted badly enough to lead to my banning. Then I realized a couple things:
The mods always give plenty of warning before they ban someone. No one ever gets banned out of the blue. They get Official Mod Warnings, often several of them, before the boom gets lowered. I’ve never seen anyone banned when there was the slightest bit of doubt over the poster’s intentions. Assuming your intentions are good, odds are you’ll never get banned, even if you do make the occasional misstep along the way.
and
Even if you somehow do get banned, it’s not all that hard to get reinstated, so long as you’re apologetic, and make a good-faith promise never again to do whatever it was you did to get you banned.
In other words, don’t worry about it. The mods are reasonable people. They’re not ogres looking for slightest infraction to kick kick you out. In fact, they’d probably be happiest if they didn’t have to ban anyone. Chill out, calm down, and post in peace. It’s not worth the agita.
Geez, I just tried to make a joke! Sorry if I didn’t use the appropriate smilie.
I didn’t think I said anything that should have led you to believe I, or anyone else, had “a dim opinion” of you. I did not think you would ban me, or anyone else, for the occasional Latin bon mot, but I’ve definitely held to the more conservative side of things on this issue and would like to know the full range of what is acceptable. I meant no insult to any moderator or administrator, and believe me, I’m just as annoyed by 500 words of Dutch or Flemish or whatever as anyone else. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m very concerned with linguistic precision as a professional matter, and I thought some of us, myself included, might find it easier to stick to the rules if we had a more thorough idea of what they are.
Obviously, it’s your prerogative not to expound further on this issue, but I really don’t understand why you’re apparently so annoyed at what I thought was a relatively straightforward question. I really didn’t think it was that big a deal. I’m sorry if you did. I guess we’ll have to stick to trial and error then.
Actually, as I recall, that particular thread was closed not because of the use of a foreign language, but because the mods wish to discourage profanity for profanity’s sake (no matter how colorful and entertaining).
Reference to Manny’s post to me above, which I’m not gonna quote the whole long thing of:
I wish to tender my complete and sincere apology to Manny for the post it was in response to. I saw the thrust of his original comment to Eva Luna as being one in which his basic point – that Moderators are just posters who have undertaken the special role of assisting other posters and making sure the rules of the board are followed, and that they feel irked when someone assumes they’re hovering over the “ban” button – as her question having pushed one of his hot buttons, and responded with what was intended as acknowledgement of my recognition of that position. Unfortunately (and unintentionally) it came across as my sounding like I wanted to play Junior Mod. Which no doubt irked him even more.
Since the whole thing happened on open board, I want to apologize to Manny. and to the rest of the staff on open board for having done so, however unintentionally.
