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The so-called ‘no-fly zone’ over Chicago means nothing without the means to enforce it (i.e. Anti-Aircraft batteries or fighter patrols)
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The atrocities on 9/11/2001 were committed with commercial airliners, not gen-av planes.
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Daley:wally obviously just wanted what he wanted, and was wrong when he did it. He knows he was wrong, that’s why he ordered it under the cover of darkness.
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Daley:wally has a history of this kind of thing, using political clout and favor trading to close the USAFR base at O’Hare while his brother was secretary of commerce during the Clinton Administration. This was done so the land would be ready when Chicago decided to expand O’Hare, which, if the Meigs debacle is any indication, they’ll probably do while no one is looking.:dubious:
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Mayor Daley:wally is a liar, a fraud, a cheat, and a crook. He has done such a rotten thing here, that all the good he may have done so far is erased. I am afraid he may just typify the Democrat stance on things, which is sad really, because it deadens the impact of any Democratic ideals, and makes the whole party stink.
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It’s a good thing Sis Daley is dead, because these kind of actions surely would have shamed her to death.:smack:
Not all that usable as a park in that condition either.
Especially since Millenium Park is 3 years overdue for completion and overbudget by amazing millions of dollars. In fact, Millenium Park was a factor in re-opening Meigs last time it closed - an argument was made that a new park shouldn’t be considered until Millienium was finished and meanwhile, the airport should stay open since at least that way the city would get some revenue from it.
I’d like to point out that many of those “private planes” are there on business trips. And many are corporate planes, also supporting business. You know - the people who make jobs and money for a city.
It’s also the only airfield in the country that I’m aware of that closes with a crosswind - by city decision and not FAA or pilot. A good portion of those 100 days are caused by city decree and not by true aviation needs.
Excuse me? I’m a glorified secretary, fer goodness’ sake! Just because someone’s a pilot doesn’t mean they’re rollin’ in the dough.
Long before I ever considered flying lessons, though, I would go down to Meigs field to watch the airplanes fly. A LOT of people who willl never be pilots used to do the same. Why the assumption that no one enjoys an airport?
What about the Young Eagles program run out of Meigs, where underprivileged children were give free airplane rides? You think those kids didn’t enjoy that? The kids from the projects don’t have a way to get to Palwaukee or Lansing, Illinois or Gary airport, which are the nearest alternatives.
How about all the trauma patients airlifted to Meigs then taken to Northwestern Memorial hospital? There is no alternative landing site for this service in the Loop. Saving lives isn’t important?
Lifeline Pilots, a non-profit charity, used Meigs to fly patients into Chicago for specialized medical care not available where they live. Now they will have to go to Midway, O’Hare, or Palwaukee and endure a long cab ride, 45 minutes, an hour, maybe more, instead of a 10 minute drive to the hospital. Helping people get medical treatment isn’t important?
How about all the Coast Guard search and rescure missions launched from Meigs for boaters in distress? The helicoptor is being moved to 95th street - that’s like 8 miles away. That could be life or death for someone.
Meigs was never just about the “rich and powerful”. It did provide important services above and beyond being a convenience for big business.
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We have parks coming out the wazhoo in Chicago. Nearly the whole lakefront is parks, plus neighborhood parks. But it’s been a bone of contention for decades that the lakefront parks get all the attention and the neighborhood parks are neglected and crumbling. There is a sizable contingent who want the parks where people actually live - out in the neighborhoods - to get fixed up before another park is built.
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With a runway a shade under 4000 feet, the maximum size plane that could go through Meigs is quite limited. I don’t know the operating limits on the small bizjets, but it would be a tight squeeze. The average flight contained 3 people because it’s always been small airplanes. Although no one wants to see any size airplane crash into anything, the fact is the airplanes flying out of Meigs just aren’t big enough to bring down a building. Worried about bombs? All pilots taking off from Meigs and their passengers were required to pass through metal detectors and security, and their baggage inspected. FAR more security than any other airport of its size
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A Chicago Tribune poll yesterday ran about 70% against what the Mayor did. See, the dirty secret is that MOST people never had a problem with Meigs. This is a case of a vocal minority strong-arming the rest of the city.
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Yes. The close proximity of Meigs is part of what attracted Boeing to Chicago - the execs can hop from Meigs in a small puddle-jumper to where they store their corporate jets at Gary airport - about 10-15 minutes flight time, as opposed to an hour or two on the road. The Radiological Society of North America and the EEEI meetings were held in Chicago in part because their members could fly in to Meigs. Both meetings are now talking about going elsewhere. If they do, it will represent a major loss to McCormick Place, which needs all the business it can get.
In other news, more of you may know Meigs than you think: It’s the Default Airport from Microsoft Flight Simulator. I’d forgotten, till someone in the Pit thread reminded me.
Personally, just for what that product has done for General Avation, I’d give Meigs landmark status.
Ihad assumed that since Meigs Field had a control tower, that it was accepting federal funds. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. I thought that if there is a control tower, then the FAA has some say over whther the field stays open. That might take some looking into.
Off the topic, but this happens all the time to homeowners. Codes, Covenents & Restrictions frequently prohibit people from doing what they want to their property. The government can also tell people what they can or can’t do. I remember hearing about a farmer on whose field the Army Corp of Engineers built a temporary road or dyke or something. By the time they were done with it and the farmer wanted his land back, migrant birds had discovered the water that had backed up behind the structure and the government told him that he could not farm the field because it was necessary for the protection of the birds.
Since I believe these things are wrong, I should agree that the City of Chicago had the right to close the airport. But Daley made an agreement to keep it open, as *Broomstick notes, 70% of the people polled are against what the mayor did, and he took a public-use area without due process.
I did not mean to imply that there would be an Earthquake in Chicago. But suppose someone hijacked an airliner or two from O’Hare and crashed it downtown? It would be quicker and easier for rescuers to fly ingo Meigs than into O’Hare.
And regarding business travel. There seems to be a misconception by non-pilots that all business travel is done in commercial jets (first class, of course) or in business jets. Most companies can’t afford business jets. Small single-engine and twin-engine piston powered aircraft are used quite often in business travel, as are some small turboprops.
Not really, no. In the event that something like that happened, the city could readily close the Kennedy, providing a “red carpet ride” straight down from O’Hare (which would also be closed to all non-emergency traffic anyway). Furthermore, there’s enough emergency responders in the Loop that the need to fly in immediate assistance is almost nil, and the Navy could readily bring in almost unlimited assistance by water from Gurnee.
Chicken and egg argument. Daley has been trying to close Meigs for years, and the decisionmakers in the business community have known that for just as long. Why would they want to invest in an area they won’t be able to get to easily? They know O’Hare is always going to be there, so that’s where the money has gone. That’s where the airlines and related businesses would go anyway, sure, but not necessarily the ones dependent on McCormick Place. Meanwhile, the area around O’Hare is just typical American sprawling industrial suburbia, with no particular attraction to visitors, but the Loop is still something different and could still be a better destination.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, and really the interesting thing is how few people apparently do. It sounds like more people would be affected by the closing of my favorite Frisbee golf course than by the closing of Meigs Field.
But regardless of the relatively modest incomes of some GA users, the reality is that either a majority or a significant minority of users of such airports as Meigs are quite well off, and certainly some are genuinely influential. The clout of these types has always skewed the politics of aviation when it comes to GA.
I’d feel worse about the mayor’s tactics if he had not already won the court fight years ago over whether he has the right and power to do this.
Chicago’s airspace is secured by a NORAD early warning radar in northeast McHenry and a squadron of F-16s at O’Hare. That protects us from commercial airliners, but it would be mortally stupid to assume a commuter aircraft launched from Meigs poses no risk.
The potential to strike Big John is less worrisome than someone dusting the Loop with anthrax, say, or making a kamikaze attack on Soldier Field during a Bears game. The nation is at war and our enemies will exploit our vulnerabilities where they can find them – Meigs is an atrocity waiting to happen.
If the mayor foreclosed a significant terror risk at the inconvenience of a few business executives, well, boo hoo. I believe I’d have done the same thing if I were him.
I don’t believe there is any commuter airline service to Meigs. And there is nothing to stop terrorists from using one of the other 11 Chicago area airports. Or an airport further away. Closing Meigs does nothing to increase safety from terrorist attacks.
By my estimates, Meigs is a bit less than half a mile from the Loop proper, and could definitely be said to be within “downtown”. Those of you not familiar with the area can check out this map of downtown, courtesy of Mapquest; the Loop is in the upper middle part of the map, and Meigs is labelled. For reference, the Sears Tower is just north of where the Congress Parkway crosses the river. There’s a pretty good picture at the Friends of Meigs site that shows just how close the airport is to… everything.
I’m not sure which 11 airports you’re counting, but Midway and then O’Hare are certainly the next closest ones to downtown, at about six and twelve miles, respectively. The nearest recreational airport might be Palwaukee, at 25 miles out. Maybe there’s one closer; it doesn’t really matter. The next closest airports are orders of magnitude farther away than Meigs was, and I think that’s enough to legitimise the security concerns. By closing Meigs, now no plane has any excuse to go within several miles of downtown, where quite a number used to be able to go within a few hundred yards of downtown. Sounds like a security improvement to me.
Just curious – When is the mayor going to ban all delivery vehicles from downtown? After all, they are more of a security risk than light aircraft.
Face it, folks. This has nothing to do with security. Daley is just using “security” as an excuse for something he has long wanted to do.
Incidentally, I’m reading some of the editorials linked from the Friends of Meigs site, and they use some of the most disingenuous argumentation I’ve seen. Richard Roeper of the Sun-Times says:
Well, Richard, that might be exactly why the mayor was trying to close it, hmm? Later, Roeper seems to claim that because his two-year-old nephew wasn’t scared of the airport, nobody should be. Bizarre. Mark Brown, also of the Sun-Times, says:
So the FAA rulings made under Democratic Presidents are less valid? Or no longer valid at all? Do tell, Mark. The Sun-Times editors say:
Perhaps they are conveniently forgetting that the federal action failed; and not just that, the reason it failed was that Illinois’ own Republican senator, your friend and mine Pete Fitzgerald, was the one that filibustered the legislation on the Senate floor in order to kill it. The editors also call Meigs a “jewel” of the lakefront; that’s pushing it a little, I think, as airports aren’t exactly the most… sightly… uses of space. The Trib editors go so far as to compare the bulldozers to tanks in a third-world coup, and Daley to a general in a banana republic. They, too, bring up the agreement over O’Hare, noting that the federal legislation didn’t pass but failing to note Fitzgerald’s hand in it.
Palwaukee, Dupage, Waukegan, Schaumburg, Aurora, Lake in the Hills, Gary/Chicago, Lewis University, and Lansing. Plus O’Hare and Midway (any size plane can fly out of them too). All within the range of downtown of virtually any plane.
Sure they’ll have an excuse. There’s no law against it, as long as they are high enough. And if they want to go lower, all they have to do is turn off their transponder and go in low.
This reveals a common bias and misperception - that somehow most air traffic is commercial jets. It isn’t.
On any given day, the commercial jets are outnumbered five to one by general aviation. Double that on a nice, sunny day.
Meigs is NOT intended as an alternate for the big jets - it’s a place for the little planes to go that would otherwise clog up the hub airports. Here’s another little known fact, my non-flying friends: I have as much right to fly into O’Hare airport in my dinky little airplane as United and their big jets do. But, of course, since I’m so much slower I’m going to hold up traffic for the big guys like my mom driving 30 mph on the freeway. THAT is why the FAA is concerned about increased pressure at Midway and O’Hare from this.
Since it cost about $65 minimum to land at Meigs and pay all the various fees, the only people landing there were those who really felt a need to be there. Those people are NOT going to stop flying their own airplanes to Chicago. Nope - they’ll still fly to Chicago… 31,000+ flights a year. And a LOT of those flights will be to Midway. Which is already nearing capacity again.
But, of course, we can just ignore the FAA’s concern about crowding…:rolleyes: … After all - what do they know about aviation?
No plane wil be able to go within a few hundred yards of downtown? They didn’t build a huge concrete dome over Chicago, they closed Meigs. Assuming a small plane is a risk anyway (and that’s a stretch) how does closing Meigs keep someone from flying close to downtown? Oh, that’s right, it’s against the law. Someone somewhere is thinking of crashing his Bonanza into the Sears tower, but now he won’t because it’s illegal to fly there.
And besides, there’s no longer a convienent airport to get gas when he’s done.
Please forgive some of Johnny’s errors in regards to Meigs - he is, after all, a couple thousand miles away and there are many aspects to the Meigs situation that are unique.
First of all, the federal funds issue: you have to remember, this did NOT happen overnight. Well, OK, the digging trenches part did, but the controversy has been raging since Daley’s first term in office, if not before.
Many moons ago, when the Friends of Meigs first formed and used the “federal funds” issue against the Mayor’s intentions the city lawyers got wise to the problem and the city of Chicago paid back every penny ever accepted from the Feds for the airport, over the past half-century. That alone means Daley has spent more in the past 8 years to kill an airport than most cities pay to maintain an airport. It is probably the only public use airport in the nation to which this applies.
About that control tower - no, it’s not a federally owned or operated tower. Yes, it does have a real air controllers but they’re employed through a sub-contracting arrangement I don’t pretend to understand. Gary Regional has a similar arrangement. From a pilot’s viewpoint there is little difference (there are one or two things a non-federal tower is not permitted to authorize that a federal tower can - but that’s getting downright esoteric). Legally, there can be a big difference in regards to keeping an airport open. Score another one for city lawyers.
About those safety issues: #1 Who is watching the Lakefront? Back when Meigs was operating the airspace next to the Loop was Class D. You could not pass downtown without talking to Meigs when the tower was operating. If you DIDN’T talk to them they would send someone to check you out. If you deviated from your stated course the same would happen. Now… there is no one watching and talking to pilots along the lakefront.
Safety issue #2 - What about radar? One important thing about radar - it can’t see through solid objects. What’s just west of the lakefront? Big huge skyscrapers, more than one over 1000 feet tall. There’s a giant hole in the radar coverage right next to the lakefront that isn’t going away - unless they build a radar unit right on the lakefront. Which I’m sure will be an “attractive” addition to any park or casino.
In other words - there is REALLY no one watching the lakefront now. If Daley had been serious about keeping an eye on the airspace the cheapest fix would have been to keep the tower at Meigs open 24/7. At least until they got that radar built.
Safety issue #3 - the VFR flyway, or why there will always be air traffic next to downtown You may be asking - what the heck is that? Think of it as a highway in the sky. The air above Chicago is every bit as busy as the freeways on the ground, so much so that the airplanes actually have the functional equivalent of traffic lanes. One of those traffic lanes is just off-shore. It keeps air traffic out of O’Hare airspace (which devours a huge portion of the sky) and over the water instead of the land. Nor are these flyways intended solely for the “rich and powerful” - they’re the same traffic lanes used by the news choppers, police, rescue units, etc. You will ALWAYS have air traffic just off the lakeshore.
OK, but why allow private citizens to fly that close? Because if you push them out further into the lake people will die. Lake Michigan is dangerous. It’s dangerous to get too far out over it in a small plane - we lose some every year to it’s weather effects. Don’t the lives of pilots and passengers matter? Or is that only when you’re in the airplane?
Safety nitpick #1: Meigs was already set up to favor the survival of those on the ground over those in the air. Unlike most airports, the traffic over Meigs makes right-hand turns. This keep the airplanes over the water as much as possible. Why do that? So if Something Bad happens the plane hits the water instead of Grant Park. This is good for the general public. The downside is that it virtually garauntees the death of any aboard the airplane, as opposed to landing on solid ground where, in a small plane, you have a better than even chance to survive. Meigs has always been more dangerous to the airplanes than to the general public.
So it is particularly hurtful for Daley to talk about out-of-control people jeopardizing the general public - when the fact is, the deck was stacked against the pilots.
Legal nitpick #1: The city owns the land. They do NOT own the sky above it. The Great Cecil even did a column on this once. Daley can NOT close the flyway. In other words, it is STILL legal for pilots to fly “just offshore” and there’s not a damn thing he can do about it except foam at the mouth. It’s still the most expedient way to get from the south side to the north side of the city if you’re east of Midway or O’Hare. That’s not going to change - it’s geography. Most of the air traffic never stopped at Meigs. And the FAA is extremely reluctant to close that flyway. The alternative is to route that traffic OVER the city - yes, even over the precious Loop - at 3,000 feet above the ground, which is the ceiling of the TFR. But that puts them into O’Hare airspace, which means more work for the controllers, who are already pretty darn busy…
Safety nitpick #2: if Daley does manage to expand the TFR the result will be MORE flights over the city, not less, and if Something Bad happens the wreck will fall on the city instead of into Lake Michigan. This is safer?
Let’s talk about all those other airports, and just how far away they really are in space and timeHere’s my list of airports within 30 miles of the Loop (measured from Meigs), in no particular order, but starting in Indiana:
Hobart (IN)
Griffith-Merrillville (that’s my home base, by the way) (IN)
Gary Regional (IN)
Lansing
Frankfort
Lewis University
Midway
Clow
Brookeridge
Naper
Schaumburg
O’Hare
Palwaukee
Waukegan
MOST of these are closer than O’Hare is to the Loop, by the way - including the two out of the three in Indiana. 30 miles as the airplane flies, and mostly less. What does that mean in terms of time?
I fly one of the slowest airplanes around - a Cessna 150. Goes about a mile and a half a minute. From Gary airport to the Loop, in the C150 is… 13 minutes. Less with a tailwind. It normally takes 15 minutes to scramble a fighter jet… that has to come a longer distance to reach the Loop than I do. And that’s for the slowest airplane I fly.
The Piper Warrior (coincidently, a model preferred by one Mohammaed Atta as well as many thousand others) could reach the Loop in less than 10 minutes. And THAT’S considered a slow airplane, too.
My buddy’s Mooney - still just a single engine airplane - makes the trip in 8 minutes or less.
Moving up to twin engine airplanes… gosh, you’re looking at things that go 4 miles a minute or more. That’s less than five minutes to the Loop.
And THAT"s the problem. People just do not really comprehend how fast even a small, “slow” airplane really is. A TFR over just the Loop means diddly-squat. It’s WORSE than no protection, it is a LIE and a FALSEHOOD.
If you can rent an airplane in another state that will take you to the Hancock building, or the AON, or the Sears Tower in 4 minutes (or less) how in the hell does closing Meigs make you any safer? A squadron of F-16’s at O’Hare? They don’t matter. It takes longer to get them in the air that it does to get from Gary airport to the Loop.
Which is EXACTLY why issues of airspace security can not be left in the hands of local government - flying isn’t local. It crosses state lines all the time. You seriously think Gary Regional and the State of Indiana are going to tolerate the Mayor of Chicago closing down THEIR airspace?
Do you seriously think anyone will be willing to cut a deal in any aviation matter with Daley at this point?
KOALABEAR SAID…
Chicago’s airspace is secured by a NORAD early warning radar in northeast McHenry and a squadron of F-16s at O’Hare. That protects us from commercial airliners, but it would be mortally stupid to assume a commuter aircraft launched from Meigs poses no risk.
What the hell are you talking about? You’re wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong.
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NORAD radar is nation wide, there are return beacons (VFR/IFR) surrounding O’hare and throughout Illinois.
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There are no, I repeat NO F-16’s at O’Hare. Since the USAF 928th Tactical Airlift Group and the ILANG 128th Refueling wing were disbanded, and relocated respectively in mid 97. In both cases, neither unit had fighter jets assigned to it. There were two dozen C-130’s and a less than a dozen KC-135 stratotankers assigned to that base, I know this, because I was a Base Police Officer, assigned to that facility from the DoD. The nearest fighters are in southern Illinois at Scott AFB, as far as I know. There are closer fighting aircraft, but there are no 16’s at ORD, that much I can garan-godamn-tee you.
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Even shooting a commercial aircraft out of the sky over Chicago would cause major damage, so perhaps you might rethink the idea of ‘protection’.
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I live no more than 5 minutes from Lansing Airport, It’s a purely municipal outfit with no control tower. A simple pair of bolt cutters can gain you access to no less than a dozen gen-av planes at any given time. With a decent twin engine prop plane, I can be staring at the chicago skyline in 12 minutes. Now the question is, am I loaded with film for my camera, or explosives?