Closing Miegs Field

Uh, yes, that’s why Meigs was so convenient. An airport is a parking lot for airplanes. Do you put a parking lot next to shops, buildings, and other attractions… or in the next county?

See my post above. Closing Meigs makes no real difference to security.

You are wrong.

As I said - the lakeshore is a designated flyway. There IS still reason for airplanes to fly next to downtown. A lot of reasons, including convenience, safety, and by direction of air traffic control. Where did people get the idea that the ONLY reason for flying the lakeshore is to land at Meigs? It isn’t - and it never has been. About the only real difference is that Daley has taken away an emergency landing spot - now, any airplane in distress will have to land in Grant Park instead of a runway. And this improves safety how…?

This idea that closing Meigs makes the city safe is a lie told to comfort those who won’t face reality, and to score political points. There’s this idea that by securing or destroying airports you’re going to make airplanes safe. It won’t work - because the purpose of airplanes is to go places and go fast.

Daley has made it clear for years that he hated Meigs field and was going to kill it. He has been opposed not just by pilots but also by many of the businesses AND many ordinary, non-flying citizens who object to yet another park - an inconveniently located one at that - when the city has so many other problems that need attention.

This has nothing to do with “homeland security”. It has to do with one man with political power who intends to do what he wants in flagrant violation of the democratic process. It has to do with one man who so hates airports (and the people who use them) that he will go against the wishes of the majority of the city (according to recent polls, the latest the one in the Chicago Tribune) that he will expend any amount of political capital to get the job done.

(Never mind that persistant rumor that what Daley really wants is a casino…)

After all… if what he did was so very legal, right and proper… if he had the support he claims… Why was this done in the middle of the night?

Why? Because if he had done it in the daylight he would have been stopped.

Make no mistake - Daley did this, not the city. Daley is “just” the Mayor. He doesn’t own that land any more than any other citizen of Chicago.

And there is the issue of how much the government can get away with in the name of “homeland security”. What feature of YOUR town or city does your mayor or city council hate? How long until the justify destroying it in the name of “security”?

:rolleyes: … right… because any conceivable emergency would leave all roads intact. Nevermind that the Kennedy doesn’t run through the Loop proper and you’d still have to use non-freeway roads. And it’s so much more efficient to go by road at (max) 120 mph - assuming the road allows for it, and having driven the Kennedy I have some serious doubts about that - than to go direct by air at much faster speeds.

:rolleyes:… uh-huh… because any conceivable emergency will spare any and all “responders”. And the NYC emergency response center wasn’t destroyed in the WTC attack. Uh-huh. Because terrorists are such nice guys they’d never target a hospital or the police or emergency access roads.

Where are they going to dock?

Actually, it’s a bit of a moot point - airplanes could still land on portions of Grant Park, or on a straight section of Lake Shore Drive.

Really? Then all those times ATC told me they were having trouble picking me up on radar were imagination?

Shortly after Sept 11, the military put up some portable radar units to close the radar holes around Chicago. I have no clue if they’re still there or not. But the radar around around big airports was installed to keep an eye on legitimate air traffic - not to look for terrorists. So there are a lots of places it doesn’t watch because, until now, there was never a need to do so.

Aside from the fact this squadron doesn’t exist… how would it “protect” the city from any airplane? By shooting it down? There’s this thing called “gravity”. If you shoot down an airplane the pieces fall down. If you shoot one down over a city you risk the people below. Or are you saying office buildings downtown are worth more than homes containing families in outlying areas?

And Ryder trucks are damn dangerous in the wrong hands - just ask Oklahoma City.

It’s not the airplane that’s the problem - it’s the potential of a criminal at the controls. And that same Bad Person could be in a car, a truck, or just walking down the road dribbling anthrax out of a hole in their pocket (arguably better than an air drop. An air drop will be seen, alerting the populace. A dozen terrorists walking around spreading anthrax spores on the sly will not be noticed and could potentially cause far more damage).

So are a lot of other things - which are being entirely ignored The Alfred P. Murrell building was blown up by a guy in a rented truck. Who is watching trucks going down the freeway? A bunch of guys in a rubber dingy blew up a piece of the USS Cole - who’s watching all the little boats going up and down the Chicago lakefront? There are a LOT of atrocities waiting to happen out there, but the focus on just airplanes is leading to the neglect of other hazards.

Realize this, people - The world is not, and never has been, a safe place You can’t “make it safe”. There will ALWAYS be a risk to being alive. How much of your liberty are you willing to yield in pursuit of an impossible goal?

So… you have a problem with democracy? Yes, the city owns the land. But Daley is not the owner of Chicago, “merely” the Mayor. There has never been a real concensus on what to do with Meigs. However, it’s definitely the dominant sense in the city that what Daley ordered done was vandalism and a total hijack of due process and the norms of government (even by Chicago standards).

In addition to the appearance of wrong-doing generated by doing this in darkness, Daley has also opened the city to liability by not notifying the FAA of an airport closure in advance as required by Federal Aviation Regulation Part 157. There is also the legal liability by the effective “impoundment” (some are calling it “theft”) of 16 airplanes. There are court cases establishing precedents that mean the city could be liable not only for the cost of moving the airplanes, but also for the loss of the use of the airplanes, particularly those used for business purposes.

So, although Chicago does own the land, and it is legal for him to close the airport, the manner in which he did so was NOT proper and there are legal issues involved.

Is this the proper conduct for a Mayor? Is this how you want a government to operate?

On a practical note, the manner in which he did it probably will save the city money in the long term, and if the concern is safety, made it likely that the airfield would really close.

He won the lawsuits over this years ago, so one would think that lawsuits filed over him closing the airfield now would be quickly ruled on with a judge saying something along the lines of, are you nuts? we did this before you got your answer live with it. I doubt that would stop new lawsuits, and I would not be surprised if those opposed to the closing would find a judge who would enjoin him closing the airfield before he could do so if he had announced it first. Having the runway torn up means it airfield really is closed for a while and perhaps takes the wind out of their sails.

Has the FAA squawked over regulation part 157 yet? Last I heard they were just concerned in a general sort of way.

Nuh-uh! I see lots of movies, and when a jet shoots an airplane with a missile the target just vaporizes with nothing left to fall down. Same thing if he uses cannons. [“Band camp” inflection] I saw Pearl Harbor, and there was this guy with a cannon who was shooting at a Japanese airplane? And there was this ship right next to him? And he never hit the ship he was shooting toward when he missed the airplane? And then when he hit the airplane it just blew up! [/“Band camp” inflection]

As has been shown, this does nothing to improve safety or security.

Maybe for the same reason the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors tried to close down Reid-Hillview Airport in San Jose a couple of years back.

Meigs Field was a general aviation airport. The public at large thinks of general aviation as a bunch of inexperienced joyriders flying big, scary machines that fall from the sky and kill your children! It’s the same mentality that fuels anti-motorcycle sentiment: It looks dangerous, therefore it must be dangerous, therefore it’s a threat to me, therefore I should kill it first.

Wow! Talk about a coincidence! I was living in the East Bay (flying out of Concord) when the big Reid-Hillview tempest was brewing and I used to live in Chicago and fly in/out of Meigs. Howzabout you?

My recollection was that Reid-Hillview was being eyed salaciously by some property developers who wanted that land for a subdivision, which incidentally, is the root of many a small airport closure in the US. Very sad.
Signed,

Former pilot of N5540W and N9066W

You might simply ask me to substantiate the facts – no need to get your panties in a bunch, bunch, bunch, bunch, bunch.

NORAD’s mission has been expanded to include civilian airspace security. “Before Sept. 11 the focus of NORAD was over the North Pole and across the oceans–aircraft coming toward North America … that focus has now increased to include domestic airspace.”

I could be mistaken about that. “*The FAA, in turn, notified the North American Aerospace Defense Command, which scrambled the fighter jets as part of the combat air patrols the Pentagon ordered in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. The sonic booms triggered by the F-16s echoed throughout Chicago’s northwest and north suburbs, startling thousands*.” It was my assumption these planes were based at O’Hare, though apparently where they’re dispatched from is NORAD’s business: “It’s unclear where the F-16s originated Tuesday. A spokesman for the Illinois Air National Guard said he doesn’t think the aircraft belonged to his outfit in Springfield. Indiana Air National Guard officials near Illinois said the planes weren’t theirs. The Air Force wouldn’t say one way or the other.

That isn’t my decision to make. But if I had to choose between destroying a hijacked 747 or allowing it to crash into a nuclear reactor, I’d blow it out of the sky in a heartbeat.

Obviously, locking your front door won’t prevent a thief from breaking into your house, but it gives you time to call 911 or escape. Due to its location Meigs is a credible aviation terror risk and it was closed for that reason. I don’t give, if you’ll pardon the expression, a flying fuck what someone can do with a Cessna and some 'tude: It’s not good idea to leave the front door wide open.

No it isn’t, and from what I’ve read, no it wasn’t. Go back and read Broomstick’s post about distances and travel time vs. interception time.

You can’t do much with a Cessna, as was seen in Florida. Heck, the Empire State Building was hit with a B-25 bomber and suffered little damage.

Delivery vehicles have been used to attack the World Trade Center in New York and the federal building in Oklahoma, as well as the Marine barracks in Beirut. Given that it has been demonstrated that delivery vehicles are much more of a threat than light aircraft and have been used to commit terrorist attacks, do you think that delivery vehicles should be banned from Chicago? If not, then why not?

I have to admit, I’ve been back and forth on this. The more I’ve learned the more irritated I am with Daley’s tactics. This isn’t the first time he’s annoyed me either.

Since I’m not a pilot my perspective on Meigs is much different. I’m not convinced it’s that much of a revenue generator for the city, and I don’t think closing it will really do any harm. At the same time, I agree that Daley’s tactics appear cowardly and I get a little tired of the focus on downtown. I also agree that more parks are needed in the neighborhoods (or at the very least the ones that are already there need attention) as well as the streets. Michigan Ave. isn’t the only street in Chicago.

FWIW, I voted against Daley last time around.

I believe the possibility to intercept a hijacked airliner has deterrent value in itself. I also believe that if we could have shot down the 767s that hit the World Trade Center, the death toll would have been in the hundreds, not thousands, and the buildings would be standing today.

I’m familiar with the argument: “Weaponized anthrax doesn’t kill people, people kill people using weaponized anthrax,” and “when possession of tactical biotoxins is outlawed, only outlaws will possess tactical biotoxins.”

Who needs to? Nobody who actually needs several tons of fertilizer is going to buy it at retail. If a guy shows up at the feed & grain with a U-Haul asking for 6,000 lbs of TerraSol somebody should think to drop a dime on his ass, don’t you think?

That’s a false dilemma. Access to Meigs is a luxury, not an inalienable human right.

Private aviation is not a Constitutional entitlement. Do you suppose that if there were an airstrip in New York’s Central Park it would still be open today?

Since the question is on the previous page, I’ll ask it again:

You can’t do much with a Cessna, as was seen in Florida. Heck, the Empire State Building was hit with a B-25 bomber and suffered little damage.

Delivery vehicles have been used to attack the World Trade Center in New York and the federal building in Oklahoma, as well as the Marine barracks in Beirut. Given that it has been demonstrated that delivery vehicles are much more of a threat than light aircraft and have been used to commit terrorist attacks, do you think that delivery vehicles should be banned from Chicago? If not, then why not?

The problem is, when you close an airport that services a lot of General Aviation traffic, all the private and small-commercial pilots that used to use the closed-down airport will use neighboring airports instead (including neighboring major airports), increasing these airports’ General Aviation load.

Were there also rescue helicopters based at Meigs field?

Yes, there were three choppers that fall into the “rescue” category at Meigs - two fire department and one Coast Guard.

In addition, Northwestern Memorial hospital used Meigs to transport trauma patients by helicoptor. Meigs was also used to transport organs for transplant.

Just for the record - several years ago, when the park proposal first came up, there was a compromise proposed that had a park with a helipad in one corner for just the above purposes. Daley was adamantly against it.

Hey, I understand that some people don’t like airports. Yes, airplanes can be noisy, if nothing else. I get the impression lee falls into that category and she’s certainly entitled to her position. However, just because some people don’t like airports does not mean we should discard them lightly.

Heck, I don’t like golf courses - they’re ecological nightmares, use more chemicals than a Monsanto test plot, and golf has long been a game of the rich and elite - but I recognize that this feeling is not universal and put up with their existance.

If there is sufficient public support to keep a city ammenity or feature - whether it’s an airport or a golf course - then the mayor should not be able to overturn the rule of the people. Unless you support rule by dictatorship.

Was Meigs a “jewel of the lakefront”? Well, an industrial diamond, perhaps. Not something everyone would consider pretty, but certainly with a true usefulness.

Yes, I have a bias - I’m a pilot. On the other hand, I’ve never flown at Meigs myself, even when I lived in the city. In part because of the landings fees - prior to the city instituting them Meigs got a LOT more traffic. As I’ve said - MY airports and city will likely benefit from increased business.

To MY mind it’s not just the airport itself but a couple of other points:

Daley is acting like someone doing something wrong. On a couple points, he IS doing something wrong. Yes, he has a legal right to close the airport. He does NOT have a right to do so without notifying the FAA (yes, lee the FAA is angry but their first priority was getting the stranded pilots out of the city. If you haven’t heard much it might be because you aren’t tied into the aviation community. The mainstream media is notoriously bad at aviation reporting on any level.) He does NOT have a right to deprieve someone either of their property or the use of that property without due process - which is exactly what happened to 16 stranded pilots this week. While it is not illegal to anger people, it is not always a wise idea for a politician to do so. Daley has enraged about 700,000 pilots in the United States, plus some from abroad. That’s just the pilots. We do have some other folks who wanted to keep the airfield, too.

This is a question of whether or not we have general aviation in this country. That’s actually a valid question to ask - why have GA? I mean, there ARE countries where civilians are not permitted to fly. Countries like Iraq, Myamar, Pakistan, the pre-breakup Soviet Union…

I wonder why the actions of 19 people (and maybe fewer - not all of them may have been aware of the true plan) should restrict the freedom of movement for 700,000 US citizens? True, flying is not constitutionally guaranteed - neither is driving your car, for that matter. A pilot - any pilot - must put considerable time and effort into earning a privilege to fly. Understandably, we get upset at the idea that someone might take our hard-earned privilege away from us. Particularly when we haven’t done anything wrong.

Don’t care about pilots and flying? Well, consider that it would set a precedent that may haunt you down the line.

As I said - this does NOTHING to prevent air traffic in close proximity to the Loop area. NOTHING. The TFR is a JOKE.

Let’s consider the person of the president… wherever he goes, he is at the center of a traveling “no fly zone” with a 30 mile radius. So… if it takes 30 miles to protect one human being… how does a TFR maybe 3 miles in its longest dimension protect a city? It doesn’t.

If a TFR is less than 30 miles in radius it’s there for political grandstanding, not safety or security reasons

If we instituted a TFR 30 miles in radius centered on the Loop you would close the 14 airports I already mentioned. But that only protects the Loop. Now, imagine a TFR that extends 30 miles out from the border of Chicago… that would be the minimum required for true “protection” of any sort. You know, I just don’t feel like getting the map out again, it would be just too depressing. It would be more than another 14, though, because once you get outside the city and Cook county the number of airports goes up. The TFR would extend into not only Indiana but Wisconsin as well.

OK… that’s a LOT of businesses that would close, with the “multiplier effect” fall out because those people now unemployed would no longer frequent nearby restaurants, stores, or buy other services. At least one professional flight school - one that trains future airline pilots - would be forced to close.

Do that with enough cities you will effectively kill general aviation. That industry directly employs over 1 million people. It’s also where new pilots come from for the airlines. (Only 40% of current airline pilots are former military, and most of those will retire within 10 years). Now… when the pilot shortage comes home to roost in 10-15 years and the airlines don’t have the pilots to fly you to Aruba… when Fed Ex can’t get your package delivered overnight because they have empty cockpits… what will you do then?

It’s not JUST about privilege (although I’m sure the folks who make their living sell things to the rich would tell you that their jobs are important to them) or about big business (although there are entire industries employing millions of people who cater to big business who wuld like to keep their jobs) but also about hauling your holiday presents to your friends and relatives, performing search and rescue missions, fighting forest fires, flying trauma patients to hospitals and organs to transplant patients. It’s about flying emergency supplies into disaster areas. So… if you NEVER send packages overnight or 2nd day delivery, if you NEVER will get lost in the wilderness, if you don’t care if people die in wildfires, if you will NEVER need to be choppered away from a bad freeway accident, NEVER need an organ transplant, and will NEVER be in an area affected by hurricain, tornado, earthquake or other natural disaster… then OK, you’ll never use general aviation.

And, quite frankly, why shouldn’t a law abiding citizen be able to fly?. Do we regulate how much someone could spend on a home, or an SUV, or a boat? Do we shake our fingers at people and say “No - you can’t SCUBA - that’s annoying and anyhow, only rich farts do that” You don’t need to be rich to fly. When I started lessons I was earning $25,000 a year. I make a little more than that now, but it’s still under 50k. And I can afford to fly about 3 weekends out of 4. I’m no CEO, I’m not rich (doing pretty good, yes, but not rich…) - so what? As long as I follow the rules why shouldn’t I be able to pursue happiness in the sky?

Is this really the country where a couple of bicycle repairmen from Ohio learned to keep a heavier than air machine off the ground?

broomstick, a couple points:

The owners of those planes are not being deprived of their property. The City of Chicago had no contractual relationship with the owners of those planes. A landowner that finds property belonging to third parties with whom it has no contractual relationship may impound such property as long as reasonable efforts to protect the property from damage are taken. Keep in mind that Meigs Field was operating without a lease; they were a tenant at sufferance and the law is clear that a tenant of sufferance has no right to continued access to the property. Any contract between the plane owners and the FBO or the field itself that may have existed has no bearing on the conduct of the City of Chicago because the City was not a party to such contracts.

Nor are they being unlawfully denied the use of their property. As owner of the land, they have the absolute right to say “you may not enter”. If you left your property there, you don’t have the right to go back and get it. You merely have the right to demand that it be delivered to you, with reasonable care, and within a reasonable time. How the landowner chooses to meet this demand is up to the landowner, not to you.

The simple fact is that nobody’s property rights were impugned in the closing of Meigs Field.

Yeah Broomstick, I hate airports and airplanes. That is why I nearly jumped for joy when I learned they did not mothball the A-10 like they were saying they would before the Gulf War. That is why I am for O’Hare expansion, and I was even when I lived directly under a flight path that routinely meant conversations paused so the plane noise would subside. That is why I feel safe when I hear the planes over head and could not sleep after 9/11 until they returned to the sky. That is why, despite a personal phobia of loud noises I have attended air shows to marvel at the planes and skills of the pilot. That is why I thought it was cool when I got to exit through the alternate exit of the C-5 I was flying in despite the fact it meant I had to climb down a ladder in high heels carrying a boom box and more hand carry luggage than is allowed any 3 people on a commercial flight. That is why when I worked at the U of C hospitals I routinely chose routes that took me past the copter pad when I could. That is why I was delighted when my dad took me to the base the day the blackbird landed there unexpectedly years before the plane was general knowledge. Find another straw man.

I don’t like Miegs Field. I think it is a waste of space. There are other better air fields nearby. The land it sits on can be used so that it benefits many more of the people who live and work nearby than it did as a one runway airfield. I hope it is made into a lovely park, and I also pray that this will be done with more efficiency than was managed for millenium park.

So, if you park your car in a city park parking lot, the city can close off the parking lot whenever they wish effectively impounding your car without due process?

OK, KellyM, a couple of points for YOU. First of all, an airport is not property like someone’s yard - it’s much more like a road. As soon as you open an airport - regardless of whether it’s on either public OR private land certain Federal regulations come into play

Yes, they are. When you imobilize an airplane by restricting its movement you do, indeed, deprieve the owner of the primary use of his/her property. In fact, a buddy of mine at a local airport just won a court case against someone in Arkansas covering this very issue.

By this argument, the Mayor of Chicago can go out to any randome street in the city and impound every car and truck on the pavement without any reason whatsoever. Would you agree that a city has a right to do that?

So… if a landlord sells a building the new owner has the right to confiscate the possessions of every tenant in the building? The landlord can change the locks and prevent the tenants from even setting foot on the property? Do you think that would stand up in a court of law?

And the fact that when these people DID enter it was an open airport has no bearing on this fact? We are NOT talking about trespassing here. The city did NOT say “you may not enter”, they said “you may not LEAVE”. You may bar someone from entering your property - it is NOT lawful to bar them from leaving. It’s called “unlawful restraint”.

The courts long ago set the precedent that the main purpose of owning an airplane is to fly it. If you restrain a pilot from the use of his/her airplane you DO deprieve them of the use of their property, and the owner of said airplane is entitled for compensation including the loss of business revenue if the airplane is used for business purposes - why do you think Daley was so careful to make sure no large planes were trapped? And why he was so quick to volunteer to pay expenses for the trapped pilots? It’s because he knows (or his lawyers do) that this is an area of legal vulnerability.

Now, if Daley had said “I’m closing the airport in 24 hours” and then they left their airplane there - then your argument might hold water. As it is, it amounts to an unjustified impoundment of someone else’s property.

As I said - aviation law is a little different than local law. When I fly I’m under federal jurisdiction. There are a number of issues under which this could fall but I don’t care to argue this point with someone who’s convinced that Daley can do no wrong in this matter. He DID violate Federal aviation regulations by the manner in which he closed this airport. He DID deprieve 16 pilots of the use of their property. And he HAS lied to the city of Chicago by maintaining that this will make them safer (it will not) and that this will become a park (try a casino).

You can live or work in Chicago and say that with a straight face? Get real - there’s no way this will be a park. It will become a casino that will benefit only Daley and his buddies.