Coercion

… is and always has been THE political and moral issue, the core around which all the other argumentation swirls. [Proposition One]

Oddly enough, it’s not greatly controversial in and of itself: nearly everyone’s against it. The arguments start from the difficulty in addressing it except via other forms of coercion (the act of forcing someone to refrain from coercing, and/or using coercive force after the fact to create a disincentive against coercing people). From there they devolve into considerations of which specific coercions are primary and therefore illegitimate and therefore appropriate to respond to coercively, and which specific coercions are legitimate acts in defense of self or others against primary coercions.

One person’s notion of “freedom” is another person’s horrifying vision of “predators with a license to coerce”. A different person’s vision of “freedom” is the embodiment of yet another’s worries about a “police state”.

Defining “freedom” has always been spectacularly difficult and seldom prone to creating clarity and unity among dissenting people. Would an attempt to operationalize “coercion” work any better? Perhaps. Freedom is elusive and complex, and it may be simpler to denote a more limited category of what it is not. After all, the spirit of freedom would seem to indicate that you restrict the minimum that is “what freedom is not” and everything else goes, rather than trying to directly define what “everything else” consists of and then set about trying to permit it all!

Is “coercion” enough? Some might say otherwise. If I murder my neighbor, has my neighbor been coerced except in the most convoluted of constructs (I have forced my neighbor to be dead)? I myself would not say otherwise: much of the time when I might murder my neighbor, the act occurs as the fulfillment of a threat that prior to the murder existed as “you either do this (or refrain from doing that) or I will kill you”. (Or I will kill your wife or whatever). I submit that if we bracket those off and deal with them as part of coercion, the remaining ones, such as they exist, are not a major social concern. Then there are the old arguments about sins and iniquities in which no one has been coerced: incest, getting high on drugs, eating too much chocolate cake, etc. In this environment I’m sure I can just wave my hand in that general direction and say “the cure is always worse than the disease, if we even consider it to be ‘unfortunate’ at all” and most of you will nod.

For the sake of discussion will you go with the proposition that we really can ignore (“permit”) all human behavior which is not coercive, and focus our attention on coercion as the problem?

[Proposition Two]

All serious attempts to formulate a structure to allow us to interact with each other free from coercion have relied upon coercion as a response to coercion. They cannot be said to have been abject failures (insofar as all of our societies, states, nations, etc, can be so categorized), but they can be said to have fallen short of providing a coercion-free environment even if we ignore coercion when it is an intervention against predatory coercion. That is to say, there has continued to be plenty of primary coercion (coercion that does not present itself as intervening against other coercion) as well as plenty of what I’ll call “corrupt secondary coercion” (coercion that exists within the framework of intervention and protection but which in practice operates towards ends other than stopping primary coercion).

The best attempts, the most successful attempts, have been the most democratic and egalitarian of structures (i.e., with the least structural separation between those who coercively intervene on behalf of the social order, including both the creation of and the enforcement of coercive laws against coercions) and the most lenient and permissive as well (i.e., with the widest set of guarantees of freedoms, with restrictions on what can be restricted, and with some broad guidelines spelling out the circumstances under which behavior can be restricted and for what reason, outside of which it should not be, etc).

Therefore it seems it would not be a silly premise if I were to posit that if we were to try an even more egalitarian, even more permissive system, we could anticipate even more success: a functioning structure with even less coercion.
[Proposition Three]

We have room in that direction in which we could go. Without disparaging the state of our existing democracies (for they do function, and quite well given the existing baseline for comparison) or what they have accomlished in terms of providing a relatively coercion-free existence (for we are indeed relatively free, most of us most of the time under most circumstances, especially given the baseline for comparison), I think it remains indubitably true that we could increase the amount of egalitarian, participatory democracy (i.e., lowering the extent to which laws apply to people, and are enforced against them, without them having had an equal role in crafting those laws and playing a role in enforcing them), and that we could increase the degree of permissiveness as well (i.e., ways to curtail the circumstances under which the range of activities permitted to the participants can be infringed).

Agree or disagree?

If agree, what are some concrete changes we could make?

Also: Could some portion of this be done on an experimental basis? That is, instead of starting out with changes to the laws and structures of (for example) the UK or the government of Iceland or whatever, could we learn anything from a trial structure of some sort, somewhere, and see what would and would not work, just to gain some data on it beforehand?

I listened, but then I had a small piece of fluff in my ear. Could you say it again, please?

Ayn Rand wrote a thousand-page novel on this very subject, and it was easier to understand than the OP.

I think casting the debate in terms of coercion skews the debate in the first place. Freedom from coercion is only one kind of liberty. As I have posted before, there is negative liberty (freedom from coercion) and positive liberty (having the resources or ability to act on your negative liberty). Thus, a poor person without health insurance may have the negative liberty to go to the doctor, but not the positive liberty. Libertarians (classical liberals) focus on negative liberty–freedom from coercion. So the terms of the debate as you have set it up favor the libertarian. But welfare liberals argue that without positive liberty (the means to act on your negative liberty) negative liberty is worthless.

So basically, this is a long-winded way of saying that the discussion shouldn’t be couched in terms of coercion, and that doing so begs some important questions (though I know that was not your intention).

So you’re trying to coerce us into discussing it your way? :smiley:

This isn’t exactly a response to the OP, but I do have a question about the concept of coercion. Let’s say a guy buys the house next to mine and starts a chicken farm. The smell of the feces is terrible and makes me unhappy. Am I being coerced?

I would not say so.

I just want to make sure people have the liberty to take the discussion in another direction. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t really agree with this at all. I think the modern democracies have quite a bit of coercion. The USA, Japan, and the European countries have millions of pages of regulations governing food, clothing, housing, transportation, electronics, finance, and virtually all other economic activity. And beyond economics, they’ve imposed considerable limitations on personal behavior as well.

Now some of this was unavoidable. New technologies, such as cars, required regulations that didn’t exist before. Some of it is trivial. No one cares that it’s illegal to make children’s sleepwear out of pure cotton, as long as some decent children’s sleepwear is available.

In other cases, democracy has resulted in force being used directly. For instance, cities and states across the USA have banned smoking in bars. This was surely a response to public demand, yet it led to more coercion all the same.

I’m curious as to why. Would you say that his freedom includes the right to use his property as he sees fit?

Would the situation be different if he played very loud music at all hours?

I’m deliberately not defining “freedom”.

Neighbor raising chickens and/or making lotsa noise does not seem in and of itself to be coercive behavior.

I do not want to smell neighbor’s chickens or hear neighbor’s noise. What shall I do? I can threaten to beat neighbor to a bloody pulp unless neighbor stops. That would be coercive. I can, in conjunction with the city government, bring down enforcers of laws that prohibit smelly chickens and loud noise, as violations of smell and noise ordinance. That, too, would be coercive. What are my non-coercive options here?

Property.

I want some.

I can’t make any.

Someone already owns all of it.

Every square inch of property is owned because of successful coercion, including murder at some point in the passage of title to land.

Property is the embodiment of the acceptance of the right of coercion.

Tris

No disagreement here. Were you going somewhere with this?

ETA: Is is their notion that they “own” it already just as it might be your notion that you “own” it once you’ve “acquired” it.

You have it wrong.

  1. The standard definition of coercion (at least within libertarian circles) is the initiation of force, independent of intent, or an excessive responsive use of force. Externalities (chicken farm, music, cholera-infested shit coming from upstream in the river that provides your drinking water) debase the value of your current possessions or harm your lifestyle, and should be addressed either by an appropriate degree of responsive force (polite request, yelling, calling the cops, etc) or by mutually acceptable compensation from the imposing party.

  2. A reasonable extent of responsive force is not coercion. (There is plenty of ground for debate as to what constitutes reasonable).

Owning a thing is control of the thing. That which another owns, is denied to me. The concept of owning the Earth itself is fundamentally an expression of the right of coercion. You cannot be innocent of coercion while you own property.

Hey, kid, get off my lawn.

But, we live in a world already owned. So, we must either accept the relative poverty of not owning the world, and pay tribute to the despotism of such ownership, or strive against it, and become coercive in our turn. Pretending that citizenship, courts, and lawyers change that somehow is delusional. I insist on the sanctity of my lawn, I am perhaps less successful than Nero, or Attila, but I am a despot no less for my ineptness.

Civilization is mostly just a deal with the devil. We currently have a pretty good deal, as deals with the devil go, but that’s just because the wealth of the world is currently enough to sate the hunger of even Genghis Khan. Wait until things get a bit short.

Tris