Free Will; Coercive vs. Non-Coercive Influence

As a follow-up to this thread, I have a rather abstract question: Where would you draw the line between coercive and non-coercive influence? What sort of an action can I take that would influence you–but not coerce you–towards a given action? Essentially, to what extent do we have free will?

I think that this question is immediately relevant to questions of law and justice, since it speaks to what actions should be considered force and fraud, and what actions shouldn’t.

What do you think?

-Ulterior

Could you give an example of a situation where the distinction might be drawn?

The problem is definitely one of line-drawing. What we need are criteria that may be used to define coercive situations. I tried very hard last night to do so within my conception of will and failed. I was unsure of where coercion can come into play. So instead I will opt for assertive definitions. At least, here are some examples of coercion that I can live with:
[list=1][li]Lying or withholding information. When a person lies, they hope to achieve something that wouldn’t happen otherwise. All forms of lying in order to have another person act based on the lie are coercive. Withholding information that would be necessary for another to make an informed choice on some matter is a degenerate case of lying (by essentially telling the lie: “There is nothing more you need to know,”).[/li][li]Unwilling transfer of property or money. This is roughly theft in its various forms (breaking and entering, robbery, and so on); however, it could also apply in cases of documents/contracts so concocted as to have one party be screwed in the deal, hidden behind excessive and complicated wording.[/li][li]Pressure caused by threat of physical force. I think this one speaks for itself. All governments are inherently coercive, which probably won’t sit well with some but it seems quite plain to me. This is not to admonish governments, but make a plain and simple point that should never be forgotten.[/li][li]The systematic removal, or complete lack, of other viable options. Tricky, but roughly, acting in such a way as to block a party from performing any action but the one you seek. Most prevalent in economic contexts, for example, a company who only pays enough for meager living but will provide a house for you—on their terms. Whether we would hold the economic situation in general at fault or the company itself is not my concern in outlining this case, it is only to note that the person in this situation is out of options. With no ability to choose a person is forced to act a certain way (or die, which is never an option in an abstract sense).[/list=1]The problem isn’t finding examples of coercive behavior, it is describing them in such a way as to make a test for coercion. We also must decide what to do in cases where a person is coerced into acting a certain way, and yet there is no party or parties responsible. We must also outline what a viable choice is in the first place.[/li]
A viable choice to me assumes that:

  1. Death, starvation, or homelessness are not any of the options; and,
  2. There is more than one option that will give the person a positive outcome; and,
  3. no choice involves breaking the law.

Complications arise in (2) when knowledge is a key to realizing viable choices. This complication is not simply a matter of 1 above, it could also result from a poor education. Again, I am merely recognizing a case of coerced behavior, not assigning blame for coercion.

erl: Where would you place the need to work to acquire money for food so that you might not starve?

is one’s environment coercive?

is that what you ask?

i think the idea of coercion involves it coming from a nameable entity (person or groups of persons).

  1. Why?

  2. Not to be glib, the nameable entities here are the human need for sustenance and the law of property. Having to work against one’s will and against one’s terms in order to eat is certainly compulsion, if not coercion. This should particularly be realized in the libertarian context, from which Ulterior originally drew his question.

coercion, in my conception of it, is generally something one person does to another.

in your part 2), i ask, who is doing the coercing? “society” is not an entity i consider “nameable”. i guess i should specify that when i say nameable, i mean you can provide a name or list of names of people (or apes, or crocodiles, or whatever is doing the coercing) comprising that entity.

erislover: You’re right to say that any definition of coercion must be assertive; the point I was trying to drive at is that I don’t think that there can really be a coherent and acceptable a priori system of drawing the line between coercion and non-coercion.

The essential point I’m trying to make is this: I don’t think that any such thing as perfect freedom exists, since experiences inform our actions and decisions, and since we have a limited sphere in which our actions can have effects. Thus talking about the black-and-white concepts of “Freedom” and “coercion” as monolithic entities without gradations is useless. We will always be coerced to a certain extent, because we will always be influenced to a certain extent. Our experiences can never be totally in our own hands.

I also don’t think that any such thing as total servitude exists either, since there are literally always “options”; I think that there is such a thing as an independent will that gives a particular, individual spin on actions.

So in the end, the relevant thing to be discussing is gradations of freedom and servitude; and I think there is a limit beyond which some action is “too coercive”. We think, for instance, that choosing between eating poison and nothing at all is not much of a choice. Where is the line? Can someone actually devise a system?

-Ulterior

Gadarene, this is a good question, and my response demands a perspective that living requires effort to begin with—this is a biological necessity. It is therefore not a part of coercive determination per se, it is one of the assumptions made already. One has to do something to live, this is part of our physiological strucutre, not a facet of society. The manner in which one does things to live, this is a facet of society.

My outline of coercion was possibly too broad, as—for those like Ramanujan—some do not like to consider coercion unless another person or persons’ will is involved in the scenario. Thus, he mightn’t consider education as a factor in coercion since no one did it to him (our arbitrary person under consideration). I, on the other hand, still find it to be a factor limiting his choices, possibly in such a way as to fall under one of my four assertions.

This could be a chicken and egg problem, for on one hand we would like to have a semi-stable background already on which we may build our conception of coercion; on the other, the subject often comes up when we try to consider just how we would build such a background (a la the thread linked in the OP). To resolve this the question that primarily needs to be addressed is: is coercion subject to relativism? And unfortunately even this question is loaded with problems; on one hand, what one man calls coercion another might not have a problem with (taxation), and yet, an another hand, any definition we choose is likely to exclude relevant behavior and include irrelevant behavior (like Ramanujan’s point may be, contrary to mine). From an individualistic perspective coercion is definitely subject to relativism; from a cultural standpoint the question is not so easily answered.

Well, in what way? If one of the criteria for determining an acceptable a priori system of evaluation is that everyone agrees then you are most assuredly right. But the problem here isn’t one of according with a metaphysical attribute (as, say, physics might seek to understand or describe), but a metaphysical method of ascribing value. It is all well and good, then, to note that this is subject to relativistic critique, much like almost any line-drawing on acceptable behavior, but the fact remains that we do draw lines. They only need to be good enough.

Yes; don’t you live in one such system?

Coercion cannot simply the limiting of choices as all actions, once taken, limit the number of further choices available and we would be bound, absurdly, by coercing ourselves among others doing it to us. It could be, however, that limiting another’s choices is a factor in coercion—provided we outline what makes a choice viable in the first place (which is what I tried to do). But what makes a choice viable is, to a large extent, a subjective determination in a system of relativism, so an objective description can only take place to whatever extent people inter-subjectively agree. And so if most of us agree that people need to work to live, then Gadarene’s question is answered: no, it can’t be coercive, because this is something we must do already, it is part of the context in which choices operate. For this same reason I choose to not consider death as a choice, because one must be alive to choose, and so for choices to operate (in the sense we are discussing) death cannot be an option (though, strictly speaking, it always is). But we get struck by another bug here, for if we are forced to assume that people needing to work to live is not coercive, then it must be possible for them to do, else our entire analysis falls apart.

A man can be fired from his job, for example, without us considering the behavior coercive. And yet, a man can also be fired from his job coercively, in some attempt to, perhaps, purchase the property he owns and yet can now no longer afford. But it is not merely the factor of treating another as a means to an end that is prima facie coercive as while the man was willfully employed there he was a means to an end: the boss, owner, or stockholders were making their living off of him. Sure, the man is an end in himself—to himself. But that is no skin off his employer’s nose. His employer counts on that when he hires him, and should he choose to coerce him, he will count on that, too.

The reason I consider coercion not just a factor of a person or persons’ will (as Ramanujan suggests) lies in my response to Gadarene. Since we must assume some background in which coercion operates, if that background is not available then the person is either being coerced (as I suggest) or there is no analysis possible—and so we should then work to create the background possible. For example, by taxing those who are relatively safe, and using those gains to help provide other jobs, or infrastrucutre to accelerate the economy, and so on (this is an example of a solution, not a comment on it being the best or only solution).

So to summarize my almost lack of a point thus far, coercion involves—in some fashion, and I’ve outlined my take on it—what choices a person has and why he might make them. Thus, before we can describe coercion, we must have a backbone available in which viable choices can operate. The declaration of the formation of the backbone as coercive is possibly analytic, but meaningless, as the only way coercion could be describes was inside of the framework to begin with. What makes a framework in which viable choices can operate? Only then can we address the problem of coercion specifically (rather than in the generalities I’ve offered), in my opinion.

I say this mostly in hope that Libertarian is reading it, because we had once split on the matter of reasonable coercive behavior, and this is what I’ve come up with in the interim.

I hope it isn’t seen as tangential to the intent of the OP as I have a tendency to ramble.

Let me give a quite specific example here. We want to form a society whose economics are primarily handled through capitalism. Capitalism, however, operates with many assumptions, one of which is that the population is intelligent enough, or could have become intelligent enough, to make informed decisions. But it has been historically demonstrated that this will not natually fall out of capitalism, and so we need to forcibly create it—this is the backbone. And so, for example, we would find the need to provide education to the masses at such a level as to ensure a large portion of the population can in fact make intelligent choices (economically and politically and etc). But in order to do this the money and resources have to come from somewhere, and so we will take them—full stop. Is this coercive? To me, yes, it is. Does it change anything? To me, no, it doesn’t. We could say, perhaps, that it would be less coercive than if we hadn’t offered anyone any education whatsoever, but that seems to be just a shrug of the shoulders on the matter and not a method of choosing behaviors. My point is that we will come to call such behavior coercive given the society as it is—which could only be that way because etc.