As I languish here in the hospital with my daughter, I’ve decided to finally jump into college selection stuff. The downside of being the product of an impoverished fourteen-year-old girl’s unplanned pregnancy is that I obviously didn’t have a lot to start from when I got through school, and never really did the college route. But I leveraged my abilities to definitely be better off than my parents, and now I want my kids to do better than me. But… I have NO clue how to help her pick a school. So I’m hoping somebody can point me in the right direction, toward some sort of resources that might make this easier.
Her dream job is to be a Medical Examiner. She’s had her heart set on it for five or six years now. I just don’t know what we should be doing with this. Should I convince her to do general courses at a local school, then move on to a more specialized school? Or should she find a place to make home throughout her schooling (if medical school even remotely works like that… I’m seriously clueless)?
If she has any sort of guidance counselor at her school, she should make an appointment and ask pointed questions.
It is virtually always cheaper to get basic requirements out of the way at a community college, then finish undergraduate work at a university. Community colleges also have guidance counselors who can give advice about what classes to take, and where to apply next, which in this case may be one of the best perks of attendance.
It’s excellent that she has a career goal in mind (and has for a while), but once she actually gets to college, and starts having to take the sorts of prerequisite classes (lots of science) that are needed to get into medical school, she may well decide that it no longer appeals, and she decides to shift into something else.
It’s also possible that she may not be able to get the sort of grades she’ll need for medical school. Either way, I agree with @Ulfreida, that starting out locally, at a less-expensive community college, to get her bearings on college-level classes, is a really good idea.
My high school guidance counselor was worthless. Thanks for nothing, Mr. N. K.
I’ll second what Ulfreida says about community colleges. They are among the best values in education.
I’ll offer my .02, having raised three kids who went off to their own colleges. A critical piece in the equation is if the school and your daughter “fit”. You need to take your daughter to several schools, big ones, little ones, city, country, etc. Sit in some freshman lecture halls when you visit, because sitting in a general chemistry freshman lecture where 450 students are in a huge auditorium is vastly different from taking general chem at your local JC with 15-30 students.
As for what she’s interested in, help her and support her, but also give her a broader base of skills so she isn’t pigeon-holed into one career, only to find out once she’s in it that she doesnt really like it that much. Give her options, and not just options that interest her but also options where the hiring forecasts are favorable.
I once had a job with a person who got excellent grades in college but ended up with a degree that you couldn’t get a job with. She had excellent grades but a lower-value degree. As a result she was miserable because she was rubbing elbows with me, and at the time I had my AA degree from a Junior College. And basically we had the same job and same pay.
In addition to what’s been said, there are lots of books and, I presume, websites, about strategies for getting into med school. Lots to read while stuck in the hospital!
For a low fee, the career center at a local community college may be able to offer career preferences and skills testing and career counseling. That person or one in a nearby office may also be able to provide academic advising and explain the course sequences and possible pathways to majors and careers.
There are some free online sites that get at the same types of exploration. If you message me an email address, I’ll send you a URL cheat sheet.
Going to challenge the conventional wisdom. I know a lot about this; I’m the chair of the college access team–getting kids into college (with funding) is a huge part of my job.
First thing: Don’t trust anyone’s advice if it’s based on experience that is more than 15 years old. They weren’t wrong, perhaps, but things have changed a lot in the last 15 years. Conventional wisdom doesn’t hold. This includes, very much, the guidance counselor at her school.
Second thing: Community college is almost certainly a bad idea. There are times that it’s the best of a bad set of alternatives, but they are few and far between. Nationally, less that 20% (16% comes up a lot) of students who start at CC get a 4 year degree within 6 years. Best case scenario, you spend 2 years to earn enough credit to take one year off of your 4 year school. At the very least, a bright kid with poor parent(s) can likely get a scholarship/grants to a local 4 year that will be not much more than the cost of community college, and if you can do that and finish in 3 or 3.5 years, you save SO MUCH more than if it takes you 6 years with the CC route.
This is especially true if she wants to go to medical school. Med school is grades + MCAT + research + patient contact hours. CC isn’t going to help with any of those.
I’m happy to discuss CC at length, but if you want my professional opinion, it’s an absolute last resort.
Right now, go fill out the FASFA4Caster. It should give you an idea of how much federal aid (if any) she will get. They will also give you a number, your EFC, that is how much the government thinks you can afford to contribute to your education. Schools use this number when trying to decide how much need-based aid to offer her. They won’t always cover “the rest”, but sometimes they cover a lot.
In terms of cost, it’s a good deal if you can find a deal where she can cover the total cost of attendance (tuition AND fees AND books AND dorm AND food AND transportation–the whole thing) and pay EFC + $5500 in federally subsidized loans and no other loans. Graduating with $20K in flexible, very low interest federal loans is FINE. Do NOT discourage her from taking those loans if it means she can go to a good school. It’s worth it. DO discourage her from taking any others.
You decide what you can afford. Remember, she’s eating food now. To some degree, your expenses will go down when she leaves and if you can afford even $100/month, it widens her options. On the other hand, if you can’t cover anything, if she needs to cover all her college and living expenses, you need to let her know.
Every college has a net-cost estimator. It’s like the FASFA forecaster, but tells you specifically what that school thinks the school will cost for her, after need-based aid. Once she starts to look at specific schools, run these.
Merit aid is on top of need based aid. She’s likely to get some merit aid if she’s in the top 25% for GPA and test scores at a school.
Thanks for this ^ and I want to clarify that I see the CC career office as a resource for this community member. Not necessarily suggesting this as an educational route (though I’ve worked/taught at one and thought the school did a very good job).
she should go to the best school that she can at the EFC + $5500K point. Best school is almost certainly defined as “highest 4 year graduation rate”. You wouldn’t believe how much this varies and no one looks it up. Some schools don’t see 1/5 kids graduate in 6 years. Others have 90% graduate in 4. The most expensive thing is not finishing. The second most expensive thing is having to go an extra year or two. Go to a school that helps kids graduate.
Fancy schools have the best financial aid. Not even kidding. I’ve sent kids to fancy schools that “cost” $75k a year where they paid less than $1k when that same kid would have spend $5-6k a year at a public college.
Having just gone through this process with my son a few years ago, my advice would be to focus on four-year institutions. In my experience, students who go to two-year schools often tend to drop off the radar and fail to complete their degrees. Another advantage of a four-year institution is that you can line up financial aid for all four years. For example, my son got four-year partial scholarships (merit aid) from nearly every school he got offers of admission to.
I would apply to a variety of schools. My son applied to the following:
Three “safe” schools at which he was all but guaranteed admission, including the local four-year state university (e.g. Central Connecticut State University).
Three “target” schools, including the flagship public university (e.g. University of Connecticut)
Three “reach” schools (which were all private and fairly competitive)
Since virtually all schools now use the Common App, it’s not very hard to apply to multiple schools.
My son ended up getting into all of the first two categories, along with one reach school and being wait-listed at another reach school.
Then you have to consider finances, of course. The key for all of the public schools is filling out the FAFSA. The College Board (the people who run the SAT) have a similar application for private schools. These are both something the parents need to fill out; you can help your daughter with her section. Filling these out is the key to getting financial aid. (This includes federal student loans.) For the FAFSA, you have to refile it every year.
I will say that the flagship public universities are probably the best value for your money, in my opinion, unless you get a lot of financial aid and/or scholarships from a private school.
A medical examiner is an M.D., so your daughter would want to look at pre-med programs when looking at schools. Basically you need to complete a pre-med program (4-year degree) with stellar grades, then apply to medical school. I would also go into this with a backup plan in mind (like an alternate medical career), because getting into med school is insanely competitive.
Yup. Do the college selection and admission thing for the bachelor’s degree first (possibly involving a pre-med program if she’s strongly committed and has the grades for it), and then let the decisions about medical school build from that.
Also, speaking as someone working at a four-year institution, I’ll note that those institutions tend to have more generous financial aid packages and more comprehensive student support and retention efforts than community colleges. The full sticker price of the average four-year college education at a highly ranked institution is jaw-dropping to most non-wealthy people, but what they don’t recognize is that many students aren’t paying the full sticker price. Use all the financial aid and scholarship opportunities that you can get hold of, as MandaJO suggested.
Bullitt and robby are also entirely correct that your daughter needs to check out a variety of schools, apply strategically to some schools in different competitiveness tiers, and pick a school that she’s impressed by and would enjoy being at, and that is supportive to its students. Almost every college student has some rocky moments in their college career, and the difference between a place where you feel your friends/professors/deans etc. have got your back and a place where you feel alone and unvalued can be the crucial difference between recovery and failure in a rocky moment. Besides having a huge impact on the overall benefit you get out of going to college.
Glad your daughter’s doing better, Kron, and hope she’s taking detailed notes on her hospitalization experience and the ideas it’s giving her about the healthcare system and the medical profession, because that can be worked up into a kick-ass college application essay!
You sound like you know exactly what you are talking about MandaJo but that wasn’t my experience at all.
Perhaps it is unusual but my CC had an agreement with our state’s universities that a 2 year AA/AS degree = 2 years of college credit. This is the route I took and it was honored by the state university.
My two years in CC cost less than $10k and I was able to pay it off as I went. My two years at the state university cost $80k and I am still paying on that debt. I’d be in a much worse place now if I had borrowed $160k for four years at the university.
The issue is that if you are, say, an engineering major, there really aren’t 2 years of classes you can take at most CC’s. You may get 60 hours of “credit” but it doesn’t mean you have only 60 left to take. The left to take is the number that matters.
Really, what you want is a good scholarship. Unless you have a really high household income, you don’t want to be paying $40k a year, ever. And the scholarships are much easier to find at the beginning.
One thing I often say is that community colleges are fine, it’s just it truly, literally takes more maturity to be successful there than at Harvard. There are kids who graduate from Harvard who would have flunked out of a CC because Harvard won’t let you fuck up. If you decide you really need an emotional support Alpaca, Harvard will ask “what color”? CC don’t care. Ignorantly sign up for all courses that won’t transfer or that you already have AP credit for? CC don’t care. Have a block on your record because someone didn’t file your meningitis vaccination record correctly? Hope you know how to spend the day being a total Karen on the phone, because that’s what it’s going to take to get it straightened out. Professor high all the time and gave you a C for the class because you turned in one assignment late? Dean assumes you’re a slacker making excuses. You can get through, but it’s so much harder. And tons of kids don’t. The vast majority.
What @MandaJo is saying is that any money spent at a CC is money down the drain if it doesn’t lead to a degree.
Also, $40K/ year is a lot for a state university (unless you were an out-of-state student). In any event, you might have gotten money taken off the top (merit aid/scholarship) if you had applied there from the beginning.
My son got merit aid/scholarship offers of around $10K to $12K/year for public universities in other states. He got a $5K/year scholarship in our own state. It looked like the other states were trying to attract him by partially offsetting the higher cost for out-of-state students. I don’t know if any of this would have been available if he had tried to transfer from a community college.
This. My son was an engineering major (and I’m an engineer, too) so I can speak directly to this. His engineering major only accepted very specific introductory-level courses. Taking general College Physics doesn’t cut it. It has to be calculus-based Physics for Engineers (which most community colleges don’t offer). If you took College Physics, then you just wasted your time and money, because you would then have to take the correct physics course at the 4-year school.
Same with math courses. Taking college algebra or business math is useless for an engineering student. You need to be taking calculus and differential equations, and it’s anybody’s guess if they will accept those courses from a CC.
Keep in mind this is all very individual. Students also have their own personality and character, and so do colleges, and a big part of the process is about finding the right fit. For example, some students absolutely thrive when they’re around a bunch of ambitious, high-achieving peers, and some get intimidated into silence, and you can’t tell from their grades or SAT scores or general ambitions which is which.
So I’d suggest starting by thinking about what she wants “college” to look like for her: small campus with lots of personal attention from faculty? Big campus with a lot going on? Does she want sports and sorority life, or a bunch of quirky artsy peers who don’t give a crap about any of that? (Note, by the way, that a lot of big state schools also have honors colleges that lean to the quirky-artsy side, and if she qualifies academically they may throw quite a bit of scholarship money at her.) Does she care a lot about opportunities that are more readily available at some places than others, like doing research with faculty members? Does she want to settle in somewhere for four years and have a stable network of people who know her, or does transferring after two years sound perfectly fine? Different students, different answers. They’re all valid.
Once she’s narrowed down her list, she should contact individual schools and let them know she’s interested. Visiting the campus is great, if it’s practical, but if it’s not, most of them should offer some sort of opportunity to take a virtual tour, and, ideally, meet with current students. Bear in mind that these experiences are often carefully curated, especially the virtual ones, but still, it’s a good way to get a general feel of the vibe of the school and cross off the ones that are a hard no.
Next time a Resident (their white doctor coats are shorter than the Attending doctor’s coats) steps foot in her room, ask them this very question and see if they would spend an hour or two with your daughter before she goes home to give her a head start on the process. Their experience is as current as it gets and they just might enjoy sharing their hard earned wisdom. Offer to buy them lunch or supper.
If that is daunting, ask a nurse you both like if he or she could point out a Resident who might be a good choice to ask.
The good news is that many public 4 year universities have programs to help students get in and succeed who are the first in their families to go to college. See if there are some in your state (usually it is at a land grant university).
I agree about the uselessness of high school guidance counselors (there may be exceptions). For medical school admission purposes, I also agree about a 4 year college being the only way to go over a 2+2 community college plan. It ain’t fair but it is reality. Don’t pick a battle you can’t win.
My son is now in his 3rd year of residency, after medical school. Unfortunately he is wearing his white doctor’s coat in Ann Arbor now and can’t stop by your daughter’s room to talk about colleges and med school, but this is what he would tell you.
They will likely take the credit, but they won’t count it toward your degree. And the CC advising in often bad: maybe you place into Calc (or past that), but they will push you toward the easier class and not tell you that you’ll be behind when you get to the 4-year school.