Chill, Monty, I am not trying to prove that Mormons aren’t Christian. I am trying to show that it is very difficult for someone else to prove that anyone else is or is not part of a given faith, for Jack Chick or gobear or Collounsbury or me or anyone else.
Regards,
Shodan
Oh jeeze…
I can’t believe that I’m getting involved here, but you’re waaaaay wrong grieny.
NOI isn’t even close to Islam.
A few of their more bizarre beliefs:
From Here (which isn’t a great cite: it’s an Evangelical Christian one, but it’s the first one I found…there are BUNCHES of other cites, though: search for “Nation of Islam” and Yakub, you’ll get a billion hits which all support the wacky-flying saucer stuff.
I’m perfectly comfortable saying that those assholes who call themselves “Jews for Jesus” (or " ‘Fulfilled’:rolleyes: Jews" ) aren’t Jewish. They have NOTHING in common with my faith except the name.
There’s a huge difference between saying that Catholics (who accept all the basics of the Christian faith) aren’t Christians and saying that the Nation of Islam (who accept nearly none of the tennants of the Islamic faith, and have bad science fiction additives thrown in) aren’t Islamic
Fenris
Actually, Shodan, you just restated what a great many Christians believe about the LDS.
Well for the ignorant morons who continue argument from ignorance and choose to play motherfucking little games with words, yes it is hard.
However, should one wish to actualy investitage the god damned issue, it should be pretty fucking clear.
NoI has little to no recourse to the Quran or the body of the Sunnah. No five prayers in the accepted forms by Sunnah, no Saoum, no Hajj to Mecca, indeed other than using Allah and Muslim as symbolic words, there is nothing of Islamic content.
Further, NoI advances racialist philosophy in direct contravention of Quranic precepts, and adheres to a number of explicit beliefs, such as Elijah Mohammed being a prophet, Fard being a messenger (rasoul) of God, etc.
In short, in the event you stupid morons can get over me personaly, it is pretty fucking clear NoI, although it adopted the name “Muslim” lacks any of the content.
Fucking peevish idiots.
NoI
Here’s a better cite from Elijah Mohammed’s Message to the Blackman in America in which he actually states that the white race was created 6000 years ago by some guy named Yakub.
To elaborate:
There are naturally variances within the different Christian demoniations on the number and nature of the sacraments, the authority of the Pope, the veneration of the saints, and so on. But the central article of faith that is the crux of Christianity is that God the Son incarnated Himself as a human being in the Roman province of Judea during the reign of Augustus Caesar, that He was crucified, died, and was Resurrected.
As I understand it, (and correct me if I’m wrong) the LDS, like the followers of Arius, do not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead and that Jesus, albeit perfect, was created by the God the Father and thus is of unequal status…
Actually now that the other moron has irritated me with his dumb fuck content free little word games, I may as well take on Moron number one.
Actually you stupid dipshit, both are true, you lack the least understanding of either, yet you whinge on like a peevish chimp in heat because I haven’t spanked you enough.Good lord, your stupidity is an embarrasment to us all, and your nattering on ceaselessly grows irrirating.
Well you drooling little idiot, the example was fucking wrong headed and indeed factually unsupportable on any level as (a) one of them wasn’t even a fucking member of the fucking NoI period (b) that there should be some factual support to an assertion per se, which there was not. But see below.
Dipshit motherfucking baseless whinging on like drooling little empty headed chimp, goddamn it there is no quesiton of me being a goddamned motherfucking guardian of Islamic doctrine.
What there is a question of, although I am well aware you are far too stupid to grasp this, but just for the public edificaiton if nothing else, is whether the motherfucking label in any way has any accuracy.
As noted supra, for a fucking word to have some motherfucking meaning it has to have a definition. I can start running around calling myself a goddamned Muslim tomorrow, but if I don’t match the criteria in any way, shape or form, it harldy makes any sense, in any intelligent manner – although this rather ipso fact excludes you – to conclude I am in fact a Muslim.
It’s called analysis and thinking, something that one can take up for a hobby if nothing else.
There is also the subsidiary question of December’s Islamophobia and the fact that the very issue was discussed prior, including one of the sniper’s was in no way a ‘Muslim’ by any stretch of the imagination per whatever info was avail, yet december felt free to pimp “two Muslim snipers” in a clear little play to up the count as it were.
Good to have Collounsbury back in form!
Grienspace, the essential statement of Islamic faith, the Shahada, which is the first of the five pillars of Islam, says that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger (rasul). While Muslims accept the Old Testament patriarchs and Jesus as prophets of God, Muhammad is the last and greatest. NOI, by claiming prophetic status for is founders, is in direct contravention of the foundation of Islamic faith.
They are NOT Muslims, period.
To elaborate on what Gobear said:
Grieny: do you consider the folks in the “Christian Identity Movement” to be real Christians? Keep in mind that a fundimental part of their faith is some drivel called “the Serpent Seed doctrine” in which the Snake (the Devil, also a Jew) boinked Eve in the Garden of Eden and her offspring were the Jews (and in some varients, Asians and Blacks as well) and that Christ was an Aryan who came to die for the White Race so that they could be freed from the evils of the Jews (and in some varients the Blacks and Asians too)?
A buddy of mine said (and if I butcher this, it’s my fault, not his) "It’s easy to see if someone’s a “real” Christian. [ul]
[li]Do they believe that Jesus was the only son of God?[/li][li]Do they believe he incarnated in human form (both fully God and fully man)?[/li][li]Do they believe that he died to cleanse the sins of all people who believe in him?[/li][/ul]
Then they’re a Christian. Anything else is details."
Same with any religion: there are certain core beliefs: go outside of them and you’ve got a new religion. Nation of Islam is NOT “true” Islam.
Fenris
Same issue. You were attempting to assess some one else’s comparative analysis of A vs. B, while admitting you had ‘very little knowledge’ of one of the components (a or b).
If some one says “red is very similar to orange” and I tell them they’re wrong, but later admit that I have very little knowledge of “orange”, its’ just as, well, idiotic, as to object to their characterization “Islam vs. NoI” while having ‘very little knowledge’ of either Islam or NoI.
I seem to recall that Farakhan made Umrah at one point. Why did the Saudi authorities let him inside Mecca…do you know anything about that?
Actually, Captain Amazing, Malcolm X made the pilgrimage to Mecca, and had to undergo an examination (while a member of the Nation of Islam) to determine if he was a real Muslim.
He passed. So at least that member of the Nation of Islam was considered part of the club.
Which, gobear, is pretty much my point. Why is it considered ridiculous if Jack Chick considers Mormons to be non-Christian, but perfectly legitimate if certain members of the SDMB consider members of the Nation of Islam to be non-Muslim?
Why is Jack Chick the only overbearing, ludicrously self-important blowhard who gets to make these determinations?
Hi, Collounsbury.
Regards,
Shodan
Shodan:
Actually, I laughed for a good five minutes over that spoofing. I think it made your point very well.
I don’t remember if gobear was living in the Tri-State Area back in the mid-1970s; however, I was. The NoI, IIRC, well, at least some members of it, occupied the city government building of Washington, DC. The thing that brought it to an end was the ambassadors of a few Muslim countries (Iran’s ambassador was one of them) discussing the Qu’ran and the Hadith with the occupiers to show that what they were doing was haram.
Because Mormons share basic Christian doctrine with…um…Christians. (That didn’t come out right, but you know what I mean). Their fundimental views are the same at the most basic level.
The same cannot be said about NOI with regular Islam views. Unless you can show me the part in the Koran where it talks about how Allah was created by scientists who came from flying saucers.
Fenris
Cause, Shodan, by that point, Malcom X had converted to Islam.
Cite in re pilgrimage happing after his seperation from NoI.
It’s not “certain memebers of the SDMB” but Muslims who do not regard NOI to be legit. Every source I’ve read, including the “Discover Islam” booklet I’m looking at which was printed by a publisher in the Gulf States, says that NOI are not genuine Muslims for the reasons I’ve outlined. I can put kittens in an oven, but that doesn’'t make them biscuits.
Speaking of which, I’m off to the in-laws for Easter dinner. On my return, I’ll respond to Monty’s comments about the Hanafi sect’s protest in DC.
Oh dear. That’s your whole basis for disagreeing with Col’s quote.
Let’s give some backdrop here. From the profiling thread, we had this:
Which kicked off the whole “Is NoI actually muslim”. It seems like a fair question when the actions of a member of the NoI is used to justify profiling Muslims as a terrorist risk. Or do you disagree with that?
Or if that’s not the problem, could you highlight which of Col’s statements you feel are inaccurate or unfounded?
I know that, but I seem to recall Farakhan went to Mecca a few years ago.
Didn’t Malcom X commence his Pilgramage as a member of NoI and change his affiliation during or after the Pilgramage?
Bon apetit, gobear! Hope you, the SO, and everyone else has a grand Easter meal.