*bolding mine
I find it amusing that someone could challenge the credentials of a religion that chooses to identify itself as Islamic. Seems to me that we have shades of Jack Chick here, widely accused for confronting the LDS and Catholics as non-Christian and in direct contradiction of Biblical precepts . Can you imagine the Pope challenging the LDS as non Christian? Is there an international Christian organization that recognizes the LDS as Christian? :rolleyes:
Oh puh-leeze. Is this the best you can do? Col gave a relatively accurate take on NOI’s relationship to the rest of Islam and this silly, silly baiting thread is a necessary response?
I think you’ve obviously got unresolved “feelings” for Collounsbury and want even his negative attention. Don’t deny your passion for him with bitter words.
grienspace, is there anything in Col’s post that you can demonstrate is wrong, or are you just hoping to damn him through a comparison?
Oh god, is this thread going to end in some hot hot pundit on pundit action?
RWWWWORRW
This has got to be right up there on the Top 10 List of Lamest Pittings Ever.
Actually, the question is currently being answered in GD in the What defines Islam (Nation of Islam and other non-mainstream groups)? thread. (The question has also been addressed in several earlier threads with the same pretty much unanimous opinions expressed by everone who has an understanding of Islam.
There are specific differences between your comparisons:
While Bob Larson and Jack Chick claim that the LDS is not Christian, there is no overwhelming support for that view among all Christian groups. Many Christian churches do recognize the LDS as Chrstian, even while disputing their teachings on significant points. In contrast, no Muslim group recognizes the NOI as Muslim.
One reason that the NOI is regarded as not Muslim is that they specifically do not follow the Five Pillars of Islam.
Collounsbury is Jack Chick? Wow! Great disguise there Col.
P.S. Is it all right for Collounsbury to call grienspace a drooling moron in this thread? 'Cause I kinda miss that.
You’re all a bunch of papist apologists. My Magical Sky Pixie is going to cast you into the lake of fire for sure now!
My magical sky pixie is gonna team up with pikachu to beat up your magical sky pixie, Ego_Mk2!
I disagree with those posters who suggest that this thread is irredeemably weak. It does have one saving grace that will make it live through the ages.
In the OP, Collunsbury was once referred to as Collounsburp.
I will now never be able that image out of my mind when I see his name.
Yeah? Well, I have a foil Invisible Pink Unicorn rare summon legend (WWRR2 Tap to make all religious debates looke silly) that’s going to mop the floor with your Sky Pixie!
Whether the members of the modern NOI are Muslims or not is debatable, but only just. Personally I use three loose criteria to classify people as to whether they are members of a particular faith or not. In rough order of the importance I assign them, they are:
I do consider this self-identification as being the single most impotant criteria. The NOI in fact passes this test.
2)Do they observe what can be considered to be the core beliefs of this faith?
This comes second, but is still significant. By this criteria the NOI do not pass as Islamic. The rejection of the universality of Islam is problematic, but if that is all there for most it would probably just be enough to label them as a rather heterodox sect. After all, many early Muslims rejected universality as well ( though in that case they regarded Islam as an ethnically Arab religion ) - It wasn’t definitively established until the Abbasid coup in 749. However far more damaging is the veneration of Elijah Muhammed as a prophet which absolutely contradicts the core Muslim doctrine that Muhammed is the final prophet.
3)Do other “mainstream” members of that faith regard them as being legitimate members of that faith?
For me this is the least important criteria, because religious bigotry is so widespread. Nonetheless it is a valid indicator when taken with other evidence. Here the NOI mostly fails again. Most Muslims seem to regard the current NOI as being borderline or outright heretical for some of the reasons mentioned here and in that GD thread. As I mentioned in GD, this probably isn’t universal - Given the broad range of personal philosophies in the Islamic world one could almost certainly find some “mainstream” Muslims that agree that the NOI are in fact Muslim. However the consensus view appears to be that they really aren’t.
My conclusion? Despite their self-identification, I’d be inclined to regard the NOI as an offshoot religion like the Druze.
Now let’s take a couple of other sects and one individual and compare them by the same criteria -
Baha’i:
They fail on point number one - Most Baha’i do NOT consider themselves Muslims. This almost ends the argument right here, but to continue…
They fail on point number two - Baha’i regard the Qur’an to have been superceded by newer revelations, an absolutely heretical view in Islam.
They mostly fail on point number three - There is a difference of opinion among Muslim “clergy” as to whether they represent a separate, legitimate faith or are in fact merely apostates.
My view? They are a separate faith, as they claim.
Alawite:
They pass on criteria number one - They consider themselves Muslim.
They mostly pass on criteria number two, with caveats - They recognize 7, rather than five pillars in Islam and they consider those pillars symbolic rather than duties. That’s a sticky point. And they are to some extent a syncretic sect, incorporating elements of different faiths in their rituals, observances, and beliefs ( including reincarnation and belief in a ‘trinity’ ). However they do recognize those original five pillars and the two they add ( jihad and defense of Ali ) are not incompatible with Islamic doctrine.
They have a very mixed record on point number three - Sunni beliefs have often labeled them as heretics ( especially that font of medieval fundamentalism, Ibn Taymiyya, whose philosophy underlies modern fundamentalist sects like the Wahhabi and Deobandi ). However some mainstream Shi’ite leaders have accepted tham as legitimate Shi’ites.
My view? They pass enough criteria to be labeled a very heterodox sect of Islam.
Osama bin Laden as an individual:
He passes on criteria number one, obviously enough.
He passes, mostly, on criteria number two - When folks have claimed that ObL is not a Muslim it is because he violates certain Islamic commands, most notably the prohibition on the slaughter of innocents. However in this case I would regard that as a “No True Scotsman” argument. Why? Because a) he gives tortured ( and to most, unconvincing ) legalistic justifications for his actions against civilians, rather than directly rejecting the command not to harm innocents and b) he demonstrably observes the core beliefs of Islam, however twisted his sub-views may be.
With the exception of a few that use the argument above, most Muslims regard ObL as a Muslim. A horribly misguided Muslim, yes. A bad Muslim, yes. But a Muslim nonetheless.
One could do the same breakdown for other sects as well, like trying to figure out whether Aum Shinrykyo can be considered a Buddhist sect or whether the Christian Identity Movement is actually Christian. But I trust my argument is cogent enough based on the above examples.
<lame geek-speak>
A two-color summon creature spell? Your IPU blows then. I laugh and scorn your two-color spells, and especially two-color summons, as newbie fare. Clearly you started playing at or after 4th edition of the basic set. Have a nice time trying to find 4 Plateaus for your deck!
I, however, being superior, shall cast Disenchant on Col to make him lose interest in the message boards, thus accomplishing what your pathetic Unicorn could never dream to do!!
</lame geek-speak>
At risk of making this into a GD thread, what about the Ahmadiiya? Back in the day at Immigration Court, I saw a number of political asylum case from Ahmadiiya claiming that they were persecuted in Pakistan for failure to adhere to what the government (and groups not controlled by the government) considered to be “true Islam,” to the extend that they were prosecuted merely for greeting people with “Salaam Aleikum.”
Anyone have the scoop on this?
You scorn two-color spells? Clearly, you haven’t played since the 4th Edition. All the most powerful creatures are multi-colored, especially when it’s two opposed colors. Plateaus? Feh. I’ve got fifteen different types of land that give me dual colored mana.
And you can’t cast Disenchant on Col, because Disenchant can only target enchantments or artifacts. Collounsbury is neither. Call yourself a Magic player? Pshaw.
Don’t even try to rebut this argument: I’m ready and willing to Counterspell your next post. <hovers fingers over two remaining untapped Islands>
<Note lack of “lame geek-speak” tags around my post: that’s 'cause I have lame geek-speak permanently enabled in all forums.>
Eva Luna: In essence you are correct.
State Departmen Country Report on Human Rights Practices 2002 (Pakistan).
The precise incident you mention isn’t listed in there, but things like that fit into the general picture.
If that was all that Collounsbury said, I would agree with you. However, that one sentence was just a small part of a much larger post, and personally I think you’re taking that one quote out of context based solely on superficial similarities, which is quite unfair.
The Baha’is I’ve known have made it VERY clear that they are not Islamic. They may have started as an offshoot, but I’d say they are something very different nowadays.
astro, You’re right, my desire to confront ** Collounsbury** is about on par with his desire to confront December. What the fuck was the point of rebutting December’s point regarding profiling against whites? Why did he have to hijack that profiling thread to challenge December on the legitimacy of the Nation of Islam? Its fucking bullshit I say.
Robb, it is not up to me to decide whether the Nation of Islam is Islamic or not. It certainly isn’t to be decided by Collounsbury either. And I don’t give a fuck what other Islamic entities have to say about it . If the Nation of Islam describes itself as Islamic, that’s up to them. If they reject Islam, then I’ll accept that.
Biggirl, I felt emotional pain from your response. I wish you would like me.
By the way you all, ever wonder why the Nation of Islam is challenged as Islamic but no one including Collounsbury challenges ObL for not being Islamic for being “in direct contradiction to Quranic precepts”?