I don’t believe we’ve met, and therefore you haven’t a clue whether I’m a ‘leftie’, whatever that is, or not.
No one has ‘shut down debate’. None have your posts have been removed from this thread. In fact, I have invited debate. You claim immigration is a major problem for you. Please provide some specifics on how this problem directly affects you. Please describe, for example, the time you lost a job to an illegal immigrant, hospital care you were denied in favor of illegals, the time you were robbed by a gang of illegal immigrants or some discretionary item you could not buy because of an unbearable burden of tax money that in your view went to illegals. Above all, and you’d really get some sympathy from me on this one, express your concern over the blatant exploitation of illegals in this country. But please give us something. So far all I’ve seen is a lot of handwaving.
Immigration is not in fact unlimited in this country.
No one has ‘screamed’ anything here and I would like to point out that I have not called you specifically a racist. If anything, you seem to be the one who’s screaming here.
By the way, if you care to explain, did you vote in the last presidential election? If so, did you vote for Pres. Bush? I only ask because from his recent speeches, he clearly does not seem to consider the mere presence of illegal immigrants in this country that much of a threat to your economic well-being. I mean, you are aware that his administration is pressing to have many of them reclassified as ‘guest workers’, right?
I count at least six instances where advice is offered on what to do if you are an illegal alien, and at least one of those is actually contrary to the law. And that’s just in the pieces that were translated. You know, it’s a federal offense to help illegal aliens evade detection.
If you want to have a “who likes the most foreigners” contest, you’re going to lose. There is probably more racial and ethnic diversity in my immediate family than there is on your whole street. And right now I’m in an office not ten yards from an Iranian, a New Zealander and a Taiwanese who I count among my esteemed colleagues. Oh yeah, and there’s a Mexican guy over in the solid rocket department who I often ride the train home with.
Plus, I can’t stand Bush, didn’t vote for him, gave money to the other side, and probably would have voted for a sack of rotten potatoes if it had run against him. Are you experiencing cognitive dissonance yet?
There are probably over ten million illegal aliens in the U.S. now. You enthusiasts - how many do you think is enough? Twenty million? A hundred million? Because the supply is limitless. Seriously, I’d like to know how many you think is enough.
Two possibilities: 1) this is one of the parts that were included incorrectly, legitmately deserving of criticism and possible removal, and 2) it is addressed to an audience who is used to being subjected to extra harrassment and it is intended to allay the fears of those who need police protection but tend to fear the police, regardless of their situation. (Recalling that the “police” in several of the countries from which Spanish speaking immigrants will have immigrated are simply one more extension of repressive governments and that our own INS has performed illegal actions such as deporting people without trial (including at least one Spanish-speaking native born U.S. citizen).
.
Cite?
In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, I have met one person who studied the issues of immigration and came to the conclusion that we ought to close our borders while I can name at least 14, perhaps 20, people from among co-workers and neighbors whose primary concern is that we are being “overrun” with “brown” people. It hardly helps your case to note that John Tanton, the founder of Federation for American Immigration Reform, the largest anti-immigration co-ordinating group in the U.S., has made several racist remarks over the years and continues to sit on F.A.I.R.'s board. (Tanton also founded the group U.S. English from which he has issued racist and anti-Catholic declarations.)
So you will excuse me if I find a claim that any “vast majority” of anti-immigration folks are simply concerned for the economic welfare of the country. Note that I did not even claim that the haters were a majority, simply that they make up a large portion of the anti-immigration population.
Simple answer - I don’t know. But, if we are indeed being “inundated by ayleeuns”, then statistically, at least some of them must be. Heck, if you believe the wild claims of some people, most people nonwhite and nonblack in California are illegal :dubious:
I’ve read a number of your posts. You’re a leftie. And you can’t possibly be so stupid as not to know what the term might mean, any more than a Bush supporter would not know what the term “Bushie” means.
When I say “shut down debate,” I mean that lefties intend to intimidate opposition into silence with name-calling, absurd accusations, slander, and abuse, much like a McCarthyite shouting “Commie.”
Well, no, you haven’t. You have contemptuously dismissed those who disagree with you as racist and insisted, without providing a shred of support, that illegal immigration isn’t really a problem.
For a number of years, I used to take part-time work with a local janitorial service that specialized in hospitals and other medical institutions from time to time. (This is the sort of thing you have to do when you make less than $10 an hour.) * All * my co-workers were American citizens, most black and some white. They haven’t hired me in the last two years. They have, however, been hiring a lot of Mexicans. Want to bet none of 'em are illegals? Last year for several months, some Mexicans squatted in one of the empty apartments in the slum I live in, and the number of apartments and cars that were broken into skyrocketed. Just a coincidence, I’m sure. :rolleyes: My sister-in-law’s sister, a teacher, complains that more and more of her time is taken up trying to deal with the needs of the children of illegal, and that the children of citizens, many of them just as needy, are being short-changed or entirely neglected.
If you don’t see the destructive impact that illegal immigration has, it can only be because you just don’t want to see it.
Why in the world do you think I want your sympathy? I merely note, and find a certain cyncial amusement in, the blatent hypocrisy of lefties who are constantly blubbering about the wondrous, overwhelming compassion they feel and yet never seem to be the least bit concerned about the very real hardships of poor and working class whites. Shit, at least the old-fashioned socialists pretended to like us.
City and county governments across the country are complaining very loudly about the strain that illegal immigrants place on their budgets for public services. Any policeman can you tell of the crime that comes along with illegal immigration. These strains necessarily impact the lower classes more than the upper. There is no need for me to document the serious and severe problems that illegal immigration causes. It is so well established that the burden of evidence and argument falls on those who would deny it.
The hell it isn’t. Illegal immigration is out of control. There are no practical limits to immigration here anymore, primarily because the federal government will not take action to secure our borders.
(great big enormous sigh) You arrogantly dismiss the vast majority of people who disagree with you as “racist” and dismiss all concern with the troubles created by illegal immigration with a wave of your hand, and then you’ve got the gall to imply that someone else is guilty of bad manners and misbehavior.
Yes, I voted. I didn’t vote for Bush in '00 or '04. And I’ve plainly stated that many conservatives don’t really want to control illegal immigration because they want cheap labor. I have a rather low opinion of Bush for a number of reasons, although I don’t have the venomous hatred for him that you and many others around here obviously have.
Lunch break’s about over, and I have to wrap this up. If you respond, my reply may not come soon, and perhaps not at all. I’m bagging groceries after I get off my regular job, and will be for at least several more evenings. It doesn’t pay as much as the janitorial job did, and the doctor advises me that the stress of constant work is undermining my health. But you see, a couple of years ago, H&R Block screwed up my taxes, and the IRS and State revenue department hit me with huge tax bills out of nowhere having to do with a retirement fund rollover I did a while back to get some cash to pay down some debt and for living expenses. I will probably have to quit sometime in the next few months, even though my tax debt is no where close to being paid off. Even with the part-time job, all my other creditors are going unpaid, and it probably won’t be too much longer before they’ll be taking me to court. Some time this year, I’ll probably have to move in with my brother. It’s gonna be a tight fit. They have a two bedroom trailer and two kids, besides which a cousin and his wife had to move in with them after Wal-Mart ran his employer out of business.
But what do you care, as long as you can squeeze enough taxes from me to provide housing and health care for illegals?
None of the critiques in the OP, except perhaps the remark emergency rooms, addressed the impact of immigration.
Some of your BEST FRIENDS are foreigners?!?
Wow, just wow.
Kind of funny, considering I’m a poor working class white. I never really thought of myself that way though. The term I use, being not a racist, is usually “human” or “American”.
Actually, I’m married to one, and my own ancestors have been in this country less than a hundred years. It doesn’t matter to me, but you, El_Kabong and tomndebb played the race card, so I’m happy to disabuse you of any notion that I am motivated by racism. Of course, there are always a few nutballs out there who maintain that every white male is racist, no matter the evidence to the contrary, but people like that are not much interested in rational debate, right?
Whether a majority, a plurality, a few, or none of the people opposed to mass illegal immigration are racists is irrelevant to me. I don’t need to make racist arguments to prove my point. Hitler was a vegetarian - does that mean all vegetarians want to exterminate the Jews?
Oh, and I’m still waiting for an answer as to how many illegal immigrants will be enough to satisfy all you enthusiasts out there. Would 50 million do it, or are you still afraid there might be some areas in the U.S. where you can assume most people speak English?
As I said, I’ve never met you before, so I still have no clue what you mean by ‘leftie’. Whatever you mean by it, it’s clear you don’t like these 'lefties’very much so I’ll leave it at that.
Sir, the ‘contempt’ you speak of is entirely in your imagination, and once again, I stated that I thought much of what passes for argument on this subject is due to dislike of the ‘different’, and I did not use the term ‘racist’ to describe your views. People here can read both your and my previous posts, so please stop trying to change what has already been said.
As for providing proof, I’m not the one who initiated this discussion with a sweeping, factually unsupported rant about the dangers of immigration; I expressed my owen opinion on the subject in rebuttal and neither you nor anyone else is obligated to accept it. I’m sorry if you find a perfectly reasonable request for a few facts to back up your own opinions to be an annoyance.
Anyway, I don’t have unlimited time either, Lonesome so I won’t be able to address your lengthy screed point by point. I have read it in detail, however, and I think you’ve made a few cogent points. Now, as to whether you’ve made a sufficient case that immigration is completely uncontrolled, that it is a clear and present danger to the economy, that we should get all het up about this silly fucking brochure on a Colorado web site, well, not so much. In particular, what does illegal immigration have to do with you messing up your own income taxes? I had to pay off a $10K tax bill some years back and it was tough, but illegal immigration had nothing to do with it.
Nevertheless I sympathize with your view that life can be hard and unrewarding, as it has been that way for at least part of my life. I guess one has to blame someone for not getting whatever they think should be theirs by birthright, so why not blame immigrants?
And there are certainly very many people who support illegal immigration not because they have conducted a thoughtful evaluation of the costs and benefits of the current policies to both Americans and Mexicans, but instead because of a smug and/or softheaded desire to be seen as morally superior.
Well, lots and lots to respond to. Let me get started.
Who wouldn’t take free medical care, school lunches, and college tuition if they were offered? Most people in the industrialized world have those things. And most people in the industrialized world have jobs. I fail to see what devastating point you think you’re making here.
In any debate about immigration, the charge that immigrants are sucking up benefits paid for by everyone else comes up. Well, a 1994 study by the Department of Labor found that immigrants are less likely to receive welfare than native-born Americans. Show me some actually evidence that the amount we spend on services for “illegal” immigrants is significant compared to what we spend on Social Security, Medicare, military, agriculture, highways, corporate pork, invasions of various and sundry Middle Eastern countries, etc… Untli then, I see no reason to listen to this argument.
Ummm, if by “this place” you mean the United States, then no. The United States became free by opening its doors to anyone who wanted to enter. For more than six generations we didn’t set quotas, we didn’t deport anyone, and we didn’t demand that incoming immigrants prove that some American company wanted to hire them before we let them in. Fact, not my opinion. (Or how many Native Americans do you see walking around these days?) And that’s what made America great. Lookit, almost every single person who’s complaining about immigration into this country wouldn’t be here if their ancestors had been forced to cope with the laws that we have now.
Now on to the charge that unlimited immigration would swamp our country and destroy our economy and culture. It didn’t for the first 120 or so years, so why should it now? This is freakin’ huge country, physically, culturally, and economically. There’s no way any part of it would be endangered by immigration.
Look at it this way. The number of “illegal” immigrants entering the country each year is less than one tenth of one percent of the population. By contrast during the Irish Potato Famine we let in about 1.5 million Irish in two years, almost five percent of the population. And we never said, “Hey, if you Irish people want food you should go back to your own country and fix your own goddamn potato famine.” If our culture, society, and economy survived the Irish, we’ll survive the Mexicans too. Quite frankly I’m a lot more worried about the damage that anti-immigration forces want to wreck on the American way of life. But that’s just my opinion. You may disagree.
Considering that I view health care and education as universal human rights, no.
Quote:
If the illegals want a freeer society then they should go home and make Mexico that place.After all thats how this place got this way.
Ummm, if by “this place” you mean the United States, then no. The United States became free by opening its doors to anyone who wanted to enter. For more than six generations we didn’t set quotas, we didn’t deport anyone, and we didn’t demand that incoming immigrants prove that some American company wanted to hire them before we let them in. Fact, not my opinion. (Or how many Native Americans do you see walking around these days?) And that’s what made America great. Lookit, almost every single person who’s complaining about immigration into this country wouldn’t be here if their ancestors had been forced to cope with the laws that we have now.
Please note that Mexico is one country on the ineligible list. Sound like a quota to you?
There are 50,000 greencards available.
Perhaps there is a reason that we do not allow such free immigration? Perhaps its so we aren’t inundated by so many of one nationality we cannot allow others?
Nope. Lonesome Polecat did. El Kabong identified xenophobia as a problem and ol’ Lonesome immediately tried to make it a racial issue. Since Lonesome was already trying to poison the well by a blanket condemnation of those he opposes, I simply noted that his stereotype had a basis in reality.
I don’t actually favor completely open immigration and I think the issue of illegal immigration is worthy of discussion. However, Lonesome Polecat’s tactic of injecting racism (as opposed to El Kabong’s issue of xenophobia) does not promote that discussion. One can legitimately challenge the xenophobia issue without immediately attempting to cry “I’m a victim of being called a racist.”
Very true. As I have not yet expressed an opinion on the subject of immigration, itself, I am not sure why you chose to address that remark to me.
Besides medical care like emergency room stuff and education, what benefits do the Feds (or certain state or local governments) give to illegal aliens? They aren’t eligible for really any welfare type programs that I know of besides WIC.
Free medical care, school lunches and college tuition are not rights in the United States. They could have been, but multiculturalism and unlimited immigration have destroyed the American welfare state. Nobody is going to vote for universal health care if it’s going to be a magnet for emptying out every Third World ghetto in the Western hemisphere.
This more recent study states that immigrants represent 11% of the total population but 16% of the total welfare caseload.
Besides, your argument would be irrelevant even if it were right. Whether immigrants are more or less likely than native-born Americans to be on welfare is not the point. The point is that they receive welfare at all. Why should American taxpayers spend one dime on people who show up at the border and head straight for Social Services?
Actually, the United States became free by establishing a constitution and a bill of rights and requiring any new arrivals to abide by those principles.
What time span are you talking about here? The federal government imposed immigration restrictions as early as 1862. And things have changed a little since then. For instance, the frontier has been “closed” since 1890. No more free land.
The laws have always changed based on the economic and political situation. And, to turn your argument around, if today’s immigrants had to cope with the laws we had when my family came over, most of them would never get in, those who did would have to prove and achieve self-sufficiency because there was no social safety net, and when they got here they would be forced to assimilate. We gave up our old culture. To make the old immigration work, the teacher punished my grandfather when he spoke Italian in school. Do you want to go back to that?
That’s in the eye of the beholder.
According to the INS, it’s more like twice the figure you gave. Also, I hadn’t heard there was a famine in Mexico.
Why do you put illegal in scare quotes? If you exceed the speed limit, do you say you are “speeding”, or if you cheat on your taxes, do you call it “fraud”?
Actually, our culture and society were greatly (but not fundamentally) transformed with each wave of immigration, including the one that brought my family. I would prefer that any necessary future transformations be carried out by political action of people who already live here, not by imposition of a foreign culture.
Not games, clarification. Words are the only coin of exchange in this medium. When you insist that all the evils in your world ar due to “lefties” you make your arguments as silly as those posters who insist that evil was introduced to the world by “Bushistas” or whatever. You also (persistently) weaken your own position by trying to poison the well with a pre-emptive claim that your opponents are about to cry “racism” when no one has done so. Defending yourself against charges that have not been laid is simply a way to claim victimization (and I’m sure you would not want anyone to think that you have joined the ranks of those who always want to be seen as victims). In this case, your claim even led astray Hyperelastic who got confused about who actually injected race into this discussion.
Whether you started it or not, you repeated the claim that immigration opponents are “haters”.
I couldn’t disagree more. You claim as fact that the document was intended for legal immigrants and say it is a fiction that it was intended to promote illegal immigration. But eight of the nine excerpts I gave in the OP were directed to those who, to put it gently, may have temporarily misplaced evidence of their legal presence in the country.
Besides, why do you think opposition to legal immigration is any more indicative of hatred or prejudice than opposition to illegal immigration? I oppose mass immigration, regardless of whether it is legal. If I only cared about the legality, one could argue that we should simply declare everyone currently present in the United States a legal resident, and that would solve the problem.
I have asked a couple of times for a reasonable limit on the number of illegal immigrants. Nobody answered, so I conclude that those defending illegal immigration in this thread think there should be no limits on immigration, i.e. open borders. Actually, the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal thinks that, too. That is what I oppose. I am not opposed to immigration in principle, but there should be about an order of magnitude less of it than there currently is, and there should be changes in the criteria for who can come. If you want to accuse me of hate based on that, then I guess I’m guilty, but my conscience is clear.
What if your people, or mine, had been kept out? Our culture, like our language, largely came from somewhere else. Nobody imposed anything from outside, some things were adopted, other things were rejected. The foreign cultures get assimilated. So, we have good things thanks to the differences. What would baseball be without hot dogs and beer (Germany). How about lasagna (Italy). No country music (Ireland). These are superficial things, but to illustrate a point. The people already here would predict disaster with every new wave of immigration and demand that the newbies be kept out. Drunken Irish. Wop gangsters. Inscrutable Chinks. Money grubbing Jews. Lazy Beaners. Chaos. Lawlessness. Heretics and heathens. Foreign influence. Cats and dogs living together. But each and every group brought something new (new to us at any rate). Sometimes it was a fresh way of looking at things, sometimes it was technology. I doubt the latest immigrants have a master plan to force some Mexican ideology on us, they just want what our people wanted - a better life. To willfully deny this is a slap in the face to our own ancestors. It is bigotry, it is"I got mine so fuck you".