I don’t want to be an armchair quarteback, but you can’t argue that the SWAT team did their job that day. For all practical purposes they could have stayed at home and let the bomb squad and the coroner handle it.
I’m sure, in hindsight, those very officers have identifyed their mistakes and are taking actions that will let them handle similar situations better in the future.
Diane & Monty:
It’s prep school know-it-alls like you who get shot up in the hallway by misunderstood people. Instead of trying to pass your so-called understanding of society and police procedure off as factual, perhaps you should shut up, sit down, and WATCH the news, READ the papers and LISTEN to people who know what they are talking about.
Well dipshit, I do WATCH the news, I do READ the papers, and I do LISTEN (writing in uppercase is fun - WHOOP-T-DOO!!!) and if you would shut the hell up, sit down, and follow your own advice, you might (Keyword: might) figure out the definition of “people who know what they are talking about” does not equate to some armchair, Lazyboy sitting, 5 o’clock news watching, so called “expert”. (I’m still waiting patiently for Neobican’s crededials.)
I tend to listen to the “experts”. You know, like the officials who are ACTUALLY TRAINED (uppercase really IS fun!) in this sort of thing.
BTW - being the TV “expert” that you are, did you happen to see other law enforcement agencies from around the country defending the way the cops in Colorado handled the situation?
>^,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
Could you elaborate a little bit on the above statement?
Are you implying that victims of this type of violence are somehow deserving of their death or injury because they are “prep school know-it-alls”?
>^,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
Here at the SDMB people ask for: Answers, advice, and opinions. In my original post I stated I did not think the police did their job. This is true now as it was then. Monty and Diane (instead of posting their own view) have taken it upon themselves to bash me, Diane apparently making it a personal crusade going so far as to call me names and assume my lifestyle. You do not know me, but you started this and have called out, now I will finish it and put you back into your place.
It sure does! By personally viewing police action live, and hearing the reports it is a fact they did not enter the building until the gunmen had killed themselves, making the “situation” too damn late. That is incompetence plain and simple.
You said it almost perfectly, without the die hard approach of course. You said yourself, they did not know WHO or HOW MANY. You will not get this information sitting on your ass OUTSIDE the building, you have to go INSIDE, which, they did not do. This statement shows how much you know about diffusing a crisis - nothing. You do not blast your way in, you cover your teammates and enter the building quietly, keeping cover in doorways and such. Police have ears, so it would not be too hard to locate a bad guy firing a gun. You advance (still keeping cover)until you are in range and command the suspect to drop his weapon and lie down on the floor, etc. If he obeys the officer its a smart move, if he does not and makes ANY other movement, he gets shot. Either way, situation over, more lives saved.
Again, that information can only be obtained by going inside the building. I believe it is you that watch too many movies, not once did I say they should have blasted in there like Rambo, but somehow this is the picture you get. You say I will never “be there” and that I am dangerous. You dont know me, so you will never know if I am “there” and rest assured, I wont sit on my ass. You call me dangerous, which has to be the most idiotic thing to say concerning my entire postings. I am for taking action and SAVING lives, are you even reading my words, or is it that you do not comprehend? Yes it is dangerous to go inside a situation like that, but it is also necessary. I suppose its much safer to wait outside until its over.
Face it, those points were as sharp as bowling balls. The answer is still no.
Why do you make the same stupid excuse? For the third time, you have to go in the building for that information.
More kids could have been killed in a crossfire?? Not likely to happen, I am sure 4 or 5 heavily armed men would get their attention. The SWAT team has already proven its negligence by not acting.
This whole affair is based on common sense which the police lack. You seem to think it was handled professionally and you accept and commend the officials. Fine, thats your view, I DO NOT think the lives of 13 students is acceptable, NOT EVEN 1 is acceptable. I think the police botched it, you dont need to pounce and call me names, next time just say “I thought they did great” My view is just as good as yours, but your posting forced me to come back. And by the way, I do own several guns, and unlike the Colorado Police, I know how to use mine. On a final note: I am a parent, and like the parents of the victims, I am disgusted with the way it was handled, the truth is more could have been saved. If you are a parent, why can you not see how important that is? Based on your views it sounds as if it was your child that was gunned down in cold blood, you would thank god that no officers “barged in” to save your child, because you would hate to see the officer get hurt. Why dont you put your argumentative energy into a worthwhile cause, this is already over and the only thing that can be done is for the police to learn what they can do to prevent it from happening again. Save the name calling for your husband, if you are married.
PapaBear
Member posted 06-02-99 10:03 AM
Here’s why I’m arguing that tahe SWAT folks did their job that day: it’s quite likely the only reason those kids killed themselves before taking out the entire school was becasue the SWAT was there.
Actually, the police and the military “debrief” each and every battle/shooting situation. That’s for a few of reasons: (1) To identify better ways of doing it in the future, (2) saving lives, and (3) identifying mistakes of both the good guys and the bad guys.
Then don’t be.
Oh, and Diane; drat! You gave every single response I was going to! 
I do appreciate it, btw.
Cheers!
-Chip
Or, you know, get it from people who have observed the situation and left the building safely while the situation is ongoing, as in hostage situations.
>^,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
Hey, I resent that–I’ve been accused of being a lot of things, but “sensible” has never been one of them!!
This is the BBQ Pit. If it is too hot for you, don’t let the door hit you in the ass. . . . .
Excuse me sir, but I am posting my own views, and those views are that you are one of the small group of idiots who emerged soon after the Columbine shooting to state your unqualified, untrained, “expertise”. It’s amazing how people like you crawl from the woodwork soon after a tragic event.
Sitting in front of the TV watching a live news report does not make you an authority.
Oh yeah, it will take more than the likes of you to put me in anyplace, let alone, my own. But knock yourself out.
No, it sure doesn’t. If you feel that watching a live report on the TV makes you a SWAT expert, then you truly are an idiot.
No, you talk to witnesses who were in the building or who know of the situation, you learn what and who you are dealing with, you find out what part of the building the shooter is in, you determine if there are explosives involved and where they may be located, you assess the situation to determine if more lives may be in danger by a SWAT team storming into the building. You map out a strategic plan that is organized and effective.
In other words, you use your head, not your macho-mentality.
Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are ways to learn what is happening in the building without rushing the place?
It is safer to wait outside until you know what and who you are dealing with. Until then, the cops do not know if their presence may cause hostages to be killed as the suspect panics or if they may set off boobie traps or bombs that kill even more victims.
:::sigh:::
You just don’t get it, do ya.
Because you can not comprehend that this information is better learned by talking to witnesses, etc., than by blasting into a building without knowing facts.
Had the SWAT team gone in immediately, before knowing who or what they were dealing with, into a school full of smoke, water from the fire system, and frantically running kids, the possibility of a SWAT team member accidentally shooting an innocent kid or setting off an explosive is highly possible.
I agree, even 1 life is too many, however, if you paid attention to the news reports as you claim, you will know that most of those shot were hit within the first few minutes of the attack. You’re right, 13 is tragic, but no one, SWAT team or you, Mr. Rambo, could have saved those kids. Most were shot or dead before the cops received the first call.
Scary!
Yes, I am a parent, three times over. I have two teenagers and an 8 year old. Don’t preach to me how it feels to be a parent or how I would want the cops to react if one of my kids were in that situation.
I’ve been there, have you?
FYI - Two years ago during lunch hour an armed boy jumped onto the stage that is located in the lunchroom at my daughter’s school. He fired off a couple of rounds into the ceiling and began shouting suicidal threats that included the statement that he “wasn’t going alone”. Most of the kids who were eating lunch at the time escaped, but a dozen or so remained hostage for a couple of hours. My daughter was one of those hostages as were a couple of her best friends. If you think I am full of shit, trying doing a web archive search for any newspaper in Northern Utah (try Deseret News, Salt Lake Tribune, or Ogden Standard Examiner). The name of the school is Syracuse Jr. High, located in Syracuse, Utah. If I find the article, I will post it for you. I don’t know if my daughter’s name will be included in the archives (it was in one newspaper article) but her name is Christine.
Believe me or not, I couldn’t care less.
The
Sorry, I keep forgetting. 
>^,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
1 - the way THEY assess a situation. . .
2 - they follow THEIR tactics as. . . .
3 - you just scoot ALONG. . .
Gawd, I feel anal today.
Since you are not a SWAT team member, you have no credentials to back up your side either. The whole point is that was the biggest tragedy I have seen in a long time. I sincerly believe that if they would have went in there ASAP more students would have been saved. I feel the cops waited too long, and no amount of name calling on your part will change my mind.
That was NOT a proposal, so do not flatter yourself.
I do not care what you think or what you say, I have sufficently responded to your posting enough, the pit is not too “hot” for me, I just did not think your immature words were necessary. Since it is obvious neither of us are going to understand the other, this discussion has no reason to continue. Next time we debate on something, leave the playground tactics at school.
Diane, my posting was mostly a blunt version of what Contestant #3 said more intelligently up at the top of the board.
Somehow, what could have been a reasonably intelligent debate turned into a ridiculous episode of “Hey, let’s pick on the new kid!” Only in this instance, the new kid is represented by Neobican, a guy whose opinions differ from yours. MUCH LIKE the kids who finally got tired of the taunting at Columbine and couldn’t come to any conclusion more reasonable to them than to kill the “jocks” who they believed had made their lives hell. That is precisely what I meant when I said what I did. If you could act like the adult that you claim to be, I’d almost be inclined to call you an intelligent person. Fact is, all three of you (You, Monty & Neo) seem to be relatively intelligent people, but to continue on with the same silly “I’m better than you” game that teenagers play (and seemingly die from as a result) doesn’t make me want to be on your side, it doesn’t make me want to try and see things from your point of view. Of the three of you, the only person who’s managed to keep a cool head and debate with any amount of integrity and class is Neobican. I suggest everyone who’s followed along on this should just scroll back up and read Contestant #3’s post at the top again. It’s the only one that’s relevant to the topic presented in the first place.
Oh,and, P.S. Diane… Since I doubt that you were there live and in person, you really can’t belittle Neo for basing his judgements on what he witnessed on his TV screen, considering that is exactly how you based yours. “Sitting in front of the TV watching a live news report does not make you an authority”, you said. So what made you an authority? Forget it. Don’t answer. I really don’t care to know.
Diane -
Strategical tactics?
[quote]
Since you are not a SWAT team member, you have no credentials to back up your side either. The whole point is that was the biggest tragedy I have seen in a long time. I sincerly believe that if they would have went in there ASAP more students would have been saved. I feel the cops waited too long, and no amount of name calling on your part will change my mind [/qoute]
No. See, the difference between your side and my side is that you are giving your own, unexperienced opinion of how things should have been handled. I am merely backing the actions of those who actually have experience and knowledge.
See the difference?
Then why the interest in my marital status, ye who doesn’t throw low blows? (You still aren’t my type.)
The next time you make such blatantly stupid statements such as:
“What I was pissed about was the police, there I was watching the whole thing unfold on TV… officers just going around the building, looking and wasting time, in my opinion. Those kids just went in and started shooting, the were not taking hostages, just going on a terminator-style rampage. If I was the first officer on the scene, I would have IMMEDIATELY went into the school and stopped those two.(yes, with force if neccessary) I noticed how the officials didnt “catch” the suspects until AFTER they killed themselves, it is so vital to get in there as fast as possible in that situation, I would gaurantee more lives would have been saved, I would much rather have them target me, (with weapon) than helpless students.”
. . .be prepared for backlash. If you can’t handle the responses, then maybe you are posting on the wrong board. Either grow a firmer spine or stay out of the BBQ Pit.
Simple.
>^,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
If my disgust and impatience came across as being a big “meanie” then I apologize. Gawd, you guys would have been chewed up and spit out on the old AOL board.
Every time a national tragedy occurs, armchair quarterbacks crawl from the woodwork to loudly speak their uninformed, uneducated, and inexperienced opinions. Until you know what you are talking about and have some experience under your belt, don’t begin to tell these guys how to do their job.
Isn’t it curious that the only criticism has come from the “experts” without an ounce of experience? Every other law enforcement agency in the country has backed the officers involved in Colorado, 100 percent.
Most of the kids were already dead or dying before the cops even received the first call. Had they burst into the school as Neo suggests, they could have mistakenly shot more innocent kids or accidentally detonated an explosive killing more. It would not have saved those 13 people but instead taken more lives through their premature, blind actions. The SWAT members know this and are trained to react just as they did.
No, I can belittle Neo. Watching a live television report does not make him an expert on anything.
I know this is a hard concept to comprehend, but I am not the one claiming to know more about the SWAT member job description than the actual SWAT member. Nope, that would be Neo. My guess would be, since he has yet to respond to my question, is that he has absolutely zilch experience in law enforcement. Therefore, that makes his criticism void.
>^,^<
KITTEN
He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius
But…what CAUSED the shooting?
Not who did or didn’t do it…
Why?
Daniel:
You ask that as though you expected a satisfying answer, or as though there was some identifiable chemical reaction that could force two young men to go berserk and kill a bunch of people. There isn’t.
These boys were sick and miserable. They lost it and decided murder and suicide was their only choice. It was an irrational act by irrational, messed up kids, and there will never be a neat answer.
Stoidela
Diane:
Just for the record, I’m behind you 100% on this. And maybe it’s partly a gender thing, since my fiance tended toward the same reaction as Neo: “The SWAT team had guns, dammit! Why didn’t they run in there and FIX IT!” Perhaps because it could have made things worse?
What baffles me is the logic underlying Neo’s feelings on this. Is he thinking that the SWAT team is a bunch of candy-ass cowards unwilling to risk their own lives? That strikes me as completely absurd. “Hey, I’m a self-involved guy with a yellow streak a mile wide! I think I’ll join the police department and work my way into the most dangerous assignment they’ve got! Yeah, that’s the ticket!” And while it might be a remote possibility for one team member, they are going to be trained in the least effective method, they are going to choose the most cowardly and ineffective means of dealing with a crisis? Yeah, that makes a bunch of sense. Uh huh.
I’m just a regulah joe, and it seemed perfectly obvious to me that it would have been nuts to go storming into the school, and to do so would very likely have resulted in more death.
Stoidela