Columbine, an alternate reasoning

[Tristan]

Here is my take on this, and a bit of background on myself… When I was in high school, (CHS, class of '93, go Lancers… yawn) I was what I think of now as a proto-goth. I wasn’t really into the 80’s goth music, I was into Heavy Metal, and Classical. I wore lots of black, was dissatisfied with the system, and was a subject of ridicule to my peers… or at least the preppy “norms” and jocks. I had vampiric intrests, and was into alternative religions…

When my friend Mike and I would get mad at the system, we would talk about slaughtering our oppresors, to the point of making plans and diagrams. We would write stories about killing sprees during lunch hour, and would write poetry about killing my various teachers… we were pretty messed up, I suppose.

I remember incidents wherein a gym teacher would leave a room so that his precious wrestlers and football players could sit on me and pummel me for questioning his statement. I remember our drama program being cut, and the following year a new track surface beign put down. I remember the security hassling us for standing together as a group, but leaving the clean-cut looking kids alone.

I feel that the Colombine massacre could have been prevented by a school that had a fair and even treatment. Schools far to often coddle the upper percentage, and know about the mis-treatment that the ‘outcasts’ receive at the hands of the other students.

One of the reasons that we didn’t go to the faculty with the problems we dealt with was a fear that we would be told that it was our own fault for choosing to be different.

I am aware of the pseudo-nazi attitude that the Columbine students had, but does anyone else remember the kid on the phone, safe at home before the severity of what had happened became known, when asked if he knew or recognized any of the gunmen said “Yeah, they’re a homosexual trenchcoat group.”

And the only bad guys were the ones doing the shooting.

[Mauve_Dog]

I’ve certainly heard this argument before. But, you were ridiculed…I was ridiculed…heck, probably thousands of high-schoolers are ridiculed daily…but you didn’t, I didnt, and the vast majority of the others don’t, walk down the halls of our respective schools with shotguns and pipe bombs.

Granted, without the ridicule, it may never have happened. But simply stating it was because they were subject to such ridicule seems to be oversimplifying things a bit.

[David_B]

Tristan said:

And the only bad guys were the ones doing the shooting.

I don’t think people have said they were the only bad guys. But when you compare teasing people to blowing them away, I think it’s pretty obvious who was worse…

[Guinastasia]

Hell, I was teased and tormented in junior high. Did I go out and shoot anyone? Though at times I would imagine THREATENING people, just to SCARE them, but not actually doing it.
I wanted to have powers like Carrie, and make them go flying across the room, actually.

[tracer]

From The Onion, a sometimes-offensive joke newspaper, 5 months after the Columbine massacre:
Columbine Jocks Safely Resume Bullying

[yESTERDAY_mAN]

Bullying and oppression did not cause the Columbine massacre. Eric and Dylan were responsible for what they did. There was something wrong with them. Being tormented made them hate their tormentors, but their own flawed minds made them act on their hate. People need to stop trying to find a scapegoat for what happened. The shooters are responsible, they were not moved by some greater evil. Bullies, rock music, Satan, and black clothing are not to blame.

[Enderw24]

It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Likewise, it’s better to remain innocent and be thought a sociopathic killer than to open fire upon hundreds of innocent kids and remove all doubt.

Inspirational words, eh? Look, the world will never ever ever be equal. There will always be the rich and the poor. There will always be the aristocracy and the scum. There will always be those that are at a higher level looking down with scorn and pity on those at a lower level. That’s just the way it is. It happens in school, and it happens in the real world. The sooner people realize that school can scarily be like the real world, the sooner they can find ways to deal with it. And that doesn’t include taking a semi-automatic to your “oppressors.”

Those at the lower level are often times at a lower level BY CHOICE. You wear satanic messages, you’ll be outcast. You die your hair black and paint your face white, you’ll be outcast. You take up debate or chess or the math club, you’ll be outcast. It’s just the way it is. Learn to accept it and, because you made a choice as to who you are. Learn to embrace the level you’re at. I played chess, I debated. I wasn’t scorned as I walked down the hallway but I wasn’t a very popular student either. I had two choices: kill them all, or accept who I am. I haven’t bought a gun yet.

Others may not have a choice. Merely by how they look they’re outcast. Again, accept who you are. There will be others who do too. Damn, I’m sounding like Ann Landers now.

For for every other social reject out there like me, I have a question. Have you ever, even once, dreamed YOU and YOUR FRIENDS were the popular ones? That the jocks and the cheerleaders were the social outcasts? That you could have fun tormenting them like they did to you? Don’t lie to me, you did it. So how can you blame them for doing the same thing?

[threemae]

Tristan, your reasoning does not strike me as all that alternate. A lot of people have suggested this, and most people. even if they do not acknowledge it, seem to believe that this type of social system played at least some small role in why Harris and Klebold tried to kill off a great deal of their classmates. Although this certainly seems like a plausable explanation, hypothesis should generally conform to observations. Accordingly, “jocks”, minorities, etc. should be disproportionately represented in their victims.
This does not seem to be especially the case.

Something to consider.

[Sterra]

For myself ive generally chosen to be a outcast because I could not stand being popular. I also didn’t dress in all black because I didn’t like that for the same reason I didn’t like being popular. However I was angry for a kid. If anyone tried to physically pick pick a fight with me I would have beaten them senseless (though the teacher always intervened first), and if someone tried to hit me or whatever id do it back. Though I never started it and never got in trouble for it because I was a “good kid”. Most bullys are caused by the fact that people let them get away with it, so id say if you blame the jocks and stuff who bullied you would also have to blame them for letting themselves be bullied. Ultimately your life is your own responsibility.

[Sterra]

or rather blame yourself:)

[Kami_Bum]

Ender, I much prefer to stay not popular. So long as I am in my little geek group, i’m fine. I enjoy fooling the jocks with funky comebacks that they don’t understand.

But I am subject to much ridicule(especially back in elementary) which has made me a little aggressive, but like Asmodean, I don’t start fights unless it was a major offense(maybe ripping up my folderor something?). My peers have come to realize the fact that if they cross me, they can expect retaliation 2 fold.

Oh, and i never chose to be an outcast and to be ridiculed. One day it just starts with one kid making fun of you, then everyone, not wanting to be ridiculed themselves also attacks you. For a couple years i didn’t do anything, but nowadays(High School) I occasionaly let out some steam. So far all i’ve gotten is some quick lectures from teachers.

[even_sven]

Small world…I went to CHS (Lancer and all…class of 99).

I agree that social pressure in high school can reach a breaking point. Of course, that is not an excuse to go around killing people. But it does point to the dangers of having a cliqueified jock worshippng school. I dont think it is so much kids harassing kids that makes people break, as when the faculty ALLOWS and CONDONES that.

[Odesio]

**
When my friend Mike and I would get mad at the system, we would talk about slaughtering our oppresors, to the point of making plans and diagrams. We would write stories about killing sprees during lunch hour, and would write poetry about killing my various teachers… we were pretty messed up, I suppose.

**

Well I know I’d be a bit worried if one of my kids kept coming up with plans to kill a specific person or groups of people.

**
I remember incidents wherein a gym teacher would leave a room so that his precious wrestlers and football players could sit on me and pummel me for questioning his statement.

**

He left for the specific reason of letting them pick on you? Frankly I find that hard to believe.

**
I remember the security hassling us for standing together as a group, but leaving the clean-cut looking kids alone.

**

Did you dress in an odd manner or otherwise stand out more then the other students? People who dress in a strange manner shouldn’t complain about unwanted negative attention. In fact I think a lot of people who dress oddly want that attention.

**
I feel that the Colombine massacre could have been prevented by a school that had a fair and even treatment. Schools far to often coddle the upper percentage, and know about the mis-treatment that the ‘outcasts’ receive at the hands of the other students.

**

What fair and even treatment? The school doesn’t actually control every aspect of student interaction. The administration is going to coddle those who make good grades and are involved in extra curricular activities that reflect well on them.

**
And the only bad guys were the ones doing the shooting. **

There’s a world of difference between calling someone a fag and blowing them away with a shotgun.

Marc

[SanibelMan]

Uh, did this sentence scare anyone else?

Originally posted by MGibson
People who dress in a strange manner shouldn’t complain about unwanted negative attention.

[Guinastasia]

You bet. So, by dressing in a way that is “different”, that means you should be fair game?

I’m not condoning Columbine in any way shape or form. However, someone needs to make some of those bullies see that they aren’t much better. (Even if they didn’t murder anyone-how many kids have committed suicide because they were being harrassed at school?)

[Tristan]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**

**
When my friend Mike and I would get mad at the system, we would talk about slaughtering our oppresors, to the point of making plans and diagrams. We would write stories about killing sprees during lunch hour, and would write poetry about killing my various teachers… we were pretty messed up, I suppose.

**

Well I know I’d be a bit worried if one of my kids kept coming up with plans to kill a specific person or groups of people.

For what it’s worth, I think that the stories and poems were our outlet… although, I can think of at least 2 incidents that put me in such a dark frame of mind, if someone had given me a gun I would have started shooting… I think of it as more of a phase, and not being mentally capable of dealing with overwhelming socail pressure.

**
I remember incidents wherein a gym teacher would leave a room so that his precious wrestlers and football players could sit on me and pummel me for questioning his statement.

**

He left for the specific reason of letting them pick on you? Frankly I find that hard to believe.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, it did happen. Ask even seven, CHS is a very jock oriented school. What the Big Red Machine does is usually excusable, or it least it was when I was there. Times have changed.

**

I remember the security hassling us for standing together as a group, but leaving the clean-cut looking kids alone.

**

Did you dress in an odd manner or otherwise stand out more then the other students? People who dress in a strange manner shouldn’t complain about unwanted negative attention. In fact I think a lot of people who dress oddly want that attention.

I didn’t dress the way I did because I was crying out for attention. To me, there is no difference between wearing a Metallica T-shirt, and a Tommy polo… just different brand names. It’s the social stigma that wearing something not “accepted and mainstream” that I have problems with.

**
I feel that the Colombine massacre could have been prevented by a school that had a fair and even treatment. Schools far to often coddle the upper percentage, and know about the mis-treatment that the ‘outcasts’ receive at the hands of the other students.

**

What fair and even treatment? The school doesn’t actually control every aspect of student interaction. The administration is going to coddle those who make good grades and are involved in extra curricular activities that reflect well on them.

And that’s the problem, as far as I can tell. When I was in school, one of the “popular jock-types” was harassing me, threatening me, telling me what his friends could do to me… when I went to the administration (more as a lark, I wasn’t really expecting any real action) I was told that as long as there was no actual action taken, there was nothing to be done. A month later, I was called to the office and sat through a discussion on dress code and social responisibility. It turns out that I had offended someone by being all dark and ominous… go fig.

**
And the only bad guys were the ones doing the shooting. **

There’s a world of difference between calling someone a fag and blowing them away with a shotgun.

On this one, the only difference is a level of damage done. If people hadn’t made it a point to ridicule these kids every day, would the hate that propogated such an violent response have been there?
Marc **

[ExTank]

I had problems in late-elementary and Jr. High with the popular cliques (like so many others).

My cure: in the first week of deer hunting season, show up to school in camo.

After the first weekend of deer hunting season, bring a photo of you, in camo, holding a scoped deer rifle, kneeling next to the prettiest dead 10-pointer.

Hell, you don’t even have to shoot it; just ask someone else at deer camp if they’ll take a picture of you next to someone else’s kill.

Pass the photo around liberally for one and all to see.

No one will mess with you again. Ever.

ExTank
“Mostly Harmless :wally”

[DigitalMuse]

I am my prep school’s “resident goth,” which is the honor bestowed upon me to my peers. If I wear dark colors, which I only do on a day we get to wear our casual clothes, instead of our uniforms, I can feel the stares of my classmates and the mumbles about my outfit behind my back. Anyone else in my grade could do the same thing and it would be ok, but for some reason it’s bad for me to do it. I listen to Manson, The Cure, Switchblade Symphony, and other “dark” bands, but at the same time, I listen to Cat Stevens and Jars of Clay, but for some reason, only the “bad” groups are emphasized.
I have never done anything to these kids, and yet I get dissed behind my back. Unfortunately in this world, intolerance is taught in the classrooms, and I don’t think this will ever go away, since the system is corrupted at the core, which is the good/bad relationships between those that are “different”.
I think that the Columbine shootings were a terrible tragedy, but I don;t like how everyone person that even remotely resembled the gunmen were witchhunted. If a kid wearing Abercrombie clothes shoot his classmates, I can guarantee that it would not get as much media attention as if it was an "undesirable doing so.

[Tristan]

*Originally posted by even sven *
**Small world…I went to CHS (Lancer and all…class of 99).

I agree that social pressure in high school can reach a breaking point. Of course, that is not an excuse to go around killing people. But it does point to the dangers of having a cliqueified jock worshippng school. I dont think it is so much kids harassing kids that makes people break, as when the faculty ALLOWS and CONDONES that. **

CHS as in Cordova High School? Wow, really small world… heheh

Yeah, I was one of the first of the new generation of Little Theater People… when I got there in '90, the long haired Rockers were dying out, to be replaced eventually by the gothy types… I and my friends were the transition, later to be replaced by Jon Belk types who took themselves waaaaayy to seriously.

So is the LT still the place for all the odd/outcast/weirdo’s to hang out?

[domina]

Those at the lower level are often times at a lower level BY CHOICE. You wear satanic messages, you’ll be outcast. You die your hair black and paint your face white, you’ll be outcast. You take up debate or chess or the math club, you’ll be outcast. It’s just the way it is. Learn to accept it and, because you made a choice as to who you are.

I have to disagree with that. In my experience, some kids have some ineffable quality about them that attracts bullies from an early age. Wearing black, etc. are results of this fact, not the cause. I believe that if kids could actually figure out how to change themselves so people would stop picking on them, they would do it. I know I would have.

Now that I’m older, I think that has a lot to do with confidence. You’re obviously a confident person, Ender, so I can understand why you didn’t attract much scorn. But confidence isn’t something you can just decide you’ll have, like getting your hair done. I had a lot of adults give me the same spiel you gave me when I was a kid, and it didn’t help at all. How can you be confident when a lot of your peers are mistreating you? Especially if you’re just a kid?

That said, I’m not saying bullying “caused” the Columbine incident. From the most recent reports, these kids hated everybody, not just jocks. And they weren’t goths either, BTW. But I hope people will try to stop bullying not because it might prevent future massacres, but because it’s the right thing to do. Heaven help us if bloodshed is the only thing we listen to.