I must have misremembered the name of the town (Mabila), sorry.
~Max
I consider it part of the national identity, and part of being an American (in my opinion) means I’m proud of the good things my country or its precursors did / does, and ashamed of the bad things.
The way I see it, and I could be mistaken, is that we have a sort of dual sovereignty system. Then there are more numerous individuals who may identify as Native American but aren’t officially members of a Native American tribe - more power to them.
My question was about the U.S. national identity, and has no bearing on their Native American identity.
~Max
This is a ridiculous argument. You’re essentially saying that having a holiday that celebrates someone who never reached the American mainland, was from a country that wasn’t involved in the early history of America, sailed under the flag of a country that was a strong rival to the Europeans that actually settled in what became the United States, enslaved, tortured, and killed the people he met in the new world, is somehow a better way to teach about indigenous peoples than a holiday that actually, you know, celebrates the people you are trying to celebrate.
I think the US public is capable of making the distinction, although it might be difficult in some communities.
It seems I’m going to have to be more direct and risk offending.
You appear to be viewing the US as a white country. You are acting like 60% or so of the country is all that counts. This is absolutely not true. The history of all Americans is American history, regardless of where they originally came from.
The idea that a particular ethnicity matters more because there are more of them is not good at all. That idea is precisely what leads to racism. It is precisely why Native concerns were ignored, and why they were oppressed. The white settlers were happy, so no one cared about the Trail of Tears.
The idea that white history is what matters is exactly what we’re trying to change. The whole problem with Columbus Day is the focus on White history. We act like this guy who was a racist asshole even for his day is worthy of honor because he started the immigration of white people to the Americas.
While l don’t think you are a bad person, you keep repeating a lot of the stuff that is considered the problem to be fixed. Even the fact that you’d not heard of Indigenous People’s Day despite the Columbus Day controversy says you were in a bubble. You’ve admitted as much before: you’ve said this board is one of the only places you ever talk with people who are different than you.
Columbus Day is indicative of the white monoculture bias that permeates our culture. It celebrates a colonizer who made Natives into slaves and beat them. It plays into the mythology of America, and not the reality.
Indigenous People’s Day talks about how Natives have been harmed by colonialism. Sure, it also celebrates Native cultures, but it doesn’t whitewash away the horrors put upon them.
In short, your ideas about Columbus Day are exactly what Indigenous People’s Day is trying to combat. We are all Americans, and all of this is our history. Columbus is not someone to celebrate, but the guy who started the mistreatment of our ancestors who were here first.
It’s like having Nazi Day to honor WWII vets. No, we focus on the group worthy of honor.
A feat that can be accomplished by no less than three federally recognized holidays, and through absolutely no other means whatsoever, including just looking around and noticed all the white people all over the place.
The history of a nation is not supposed to be merely a reflection of the nation’s current demographics.
Just because more than 70% of Americans today have European ancestry doesn’t mean that American history needs to be more than 70% about European-Americans. There were huge swathes of the country that remained effectively under Native control until nearly the end of the 19th century. Land use, hunting and so on by Native Americans fundamentally shaped the environment of North America that European settlers then modified further.
Just because a dominant majority culture prefers to talk about itself doesn’t mean that the history of marginalized cultures isn’t important.
Well sure, the conquistadors and colonists are the ones who constructed that “national identity” in their own image. White Europeans are the ones who got to write the laws and the books and the essays that they considered to “define” the United States, because they’re the ones who seized power and firmly relegated other peoples to “inferior” status.
But history, real history, is about more than “national identity”. It’s supposed to talk about what actually happened, not just what happened to members of the dominant culture or what those members considered important.
You consider being European inextricably part of the national identity?
Are you at all aware of what that sounds like?
The existence of tribal sovereignty takes nothing away from the American-ness of Native Americans.
Again wrongly implying Native American identity can’t be American identity.
Also wrongly implying one US national identity.
During my school years there was definitely an educational component. Each year the history teacher would talk a little about Columbus and the early history of the Americas, then we would have the day itself off. After my school years I have never “celebrated” the holiday with a day off work or a party or anything. There is probably a water cooler discussion or offhand remark with a customer or something, and there is always something in the news about it, often featuring the debate over whether to keep the holiday and again, the history of Columbus and early history of the Americas.
~Max
Yes, of course. I doubt most Americans remember all thirteen colonies had slavery at some point, or that most Americans can even name three of the thirteen original states.
The opposite, actually. I was saying Americans (or specifically, me) identify with people they are not directly descended from.
I think I had the phrasing right, but I don’t see why that would be prejudiced.
~Max
What does that have to do with Columbus? And how would celebrating Columbus Day help it?
You said
How on earth is that not saying that people can only relate with those they’re not descended from?
Or did you mean that you think people can relate to Europeans they’re not descended from, but not to Native Americans they’re not descended from? In which case, WTF?
Of course. All [white] men are brothers.
Columbus has almost nothing to do with the history of the United States as we know it today. The story of the native Americans IS part of the history of the United States, and an ongoing part of the culture today. Just drop the Columbus part and talk about what it relevant to our history. No need to celebrate some confused explorer from Genoa who thought he’d reached Asia.
You must have misunderstood my argument. I did not claim it was a better way to teach about indigenous peoples, that part of my response to kenobi_65 was about “the tragic history of Native Americans”. In the years between Columbus’s voyage in 1492 and the establishment of Jamestown in 1607, the indigenous population of the Americas was literally decimated - from around 60 million to 6 million people. This was a fact taught in school.
The particulars of Columbus’s voyage, his profiteering character plus the discovery of gold and the exploitation/subjugation of the peoples he encountered, lead directly to the conquistadores and epidemics that followed in the sixteenth century, including notably for the U.S., the near-total destruction of the Mississippian culture and a strong distrust of Europeans in surviving native populations. Spanish efforts at colonization and exploration - starting with Columbus himself - set a precedent for all future European colonization efforts, including those by the English and in spite of their rivalry.
~Max
So, let’s name a holiday after him?
Hmmm. I went to high school in Atlanta, Georgia, in the 1980s and never heard of it. Wasn’t even mentioned.
I wonder whose experience is more universal, and/or if it matters when one went to HS?
When, in high school, were you taught about the Indigenous Holocaust (IH)?
- I was in high school in the 1970s when I was taught about the IH
- I was in high school in the 1980s when I was taught about the IH
- I was in high school in the 1990s when I was taught about the IH
- I was in high school in the 2000s when I was taught about the IH
- I was in high school in the 2010s when I was taught about the IH
- I was never taught about the Indigenous Holocaust in high school.
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voters
I would distinguish between
- saying the U.S. national identity is rooted in those early European colonists/explorers/conquistadors, to the exclusion of the indigenous peoples they conflicted with, and
- “viewing the U.S. as a white country”
Assuming you meant ‘the history of all Americans, regardless of where they originally came from or how many Americans share that history, is part of our national history’, I disagree on principle. The Great Famine in Ireland is not American history despite, WAG, one in ten Americans being of Irish heritage. The French and Indian war is U.S. history; however, the U.S. is properly identified with the British side and not the French, regardless of how many Americans may have ancestry on the French/Canadian side.
You may be on to something here. My conception of nationalism is, in fact, monocultural… and my concept of national history is predominantly “white” on account of the fact that most Americans were (and are) “white”, and that the origin of this country comes from the English tradition. I do not yet see these as problems to be fixed; they seem appropriate to me.
But assuming “monoculture bias” is a problem, then yes, it does make sense to replace Columbus Day and nothing I have written thus far counters that argument.
~Max
Possibly because Jared Diamond’s popular book came out in the 90s? My teacher(s) touted it as a modern understanding but now established fact.
~Max
Hence the poll. Though, to be fair, I doubt it’s getting taught today, either, unless it’s guaranteed to be on a standardized test.
Those Native Americans either assimilated (sometimes by force), or died. At the point of assimilation their history becomes our own, only then do I identify them as “us”, meaning part of the same nation that I belong to. Otherwise their history is ours only so far as our nations were allied or their actions influenced our history.
You are right on all points with this, but I would distinguish between history in the general sense and national history, and also between a commemoration or celebration and a national holiday. Reinforcing the national identity is an appropriate purpose for a national holiday, in my opinion.
~Max