Combine CSR and CC?

[RaftPeople]

@Una_Persson

Well, the entire message board would not have existed save for the Straight Dope column. Perhaps more of us who are older in message board terms see much more of a direct connection between the two.

I’m not criticizing people who don’t read the columns or the Staff Reports, I’m just wondering why they might not do such. My reasons are my own; no one who doesn’t want to answer should feel compelled to do so. I honestly appreciate very much the answers given thus far.

Ok, the MB wouldn’t exist if not for the SD column. I can buy that.

It would be interesting to understand why they’re not worth that minuscule effort, especially when one is posting on the Straight Dope message board. (emphasis deliberate)

But, this comment implies some thought process or logic that I simply can’t understand:

It seems to imply that a person using the MB almost has a duty to read the columns, and you also seem to be stating that there is some benefit to either the SD or the MB or both if more users read the columns.

What is that perceived benefit?

[Tamex]

I vote for “combine 'em”. Sounds like a good idea for two sparsely-populated forums.

Or the columns could be presented in more of a blog format: present the column, and then allow people to comment below the column. Then there would no longer be a need for all the rules for linking to the column, etc. which make those two forums quite non-newbie friendly.

I rarely read the columns anymore, and I think it is because they are presented so separately from the SDMB itself. I was introduced to the Straight Dope through the books, and there has not been a book published since 1999.

[Una_Persson]

Goodness…

Implicit, RaftPeople, if you honestly cannot see why it might seem unusual at first blush for someone to come to the Straight Dope message board and have no interest in the Straight Dope then you and will never have a meeting of the minds.

I never said or implied that anyone must, had to, or was obligated to read anything.

This side discussion is over.

~

One reason I asked folks is I was trying to see if those who like or liked the Straight Dope were still interested in the questions which Cecil is answering. One thing which strikes me is that Cecil receives a lot of medical-related questions, and this is one reason why Cecil has addressed more medical topics over the last few years. It implies that folks either may not be getting the answers they want from other websites, or that there are a lot of medical questions. Cecil no longer receives nearly as many historical questions as he used to; again I wonder why, perhaps people choose Wikipedia for that? Also, questions about entertainment/music/sports seem to be very few and far-between now; I’m guessing the same reason as before.

So if people say they don’t read, I was wondering if one reason might have to do with the sorts of questions he’s answering. I was also wondering if people like the experiments that the Straight Dope Staff sometimes help out with. You know, I really wanted to just explore for those who aren’t reading to find out some reasons why, so when next I chat with the Big Guy I might throw out some suggestions.

Posted by Tamex whilst I was composing:

I rarely read the columns anymore, and I think it is because they are presented so separately from the SDMB itself.

I’ve had people mention that to me before. I wonder what might be a better way to link them?

[Una_Persson]

@BigT

That was intended to be a joke, but I didn’t want to ruin it with a smiley. That’s why I added the “but, seriously” after it.

Thank you very much for clarifying.

[Implicit]

@Una_Persson

Posted by Tamex whilst I was composing:

I’ve had people mention that to me before. I wonder what might be a better way to link them?

If you want more exposure for the new columns on the forum, why not have one of the mods/admins crosspost the column in the Comments on Cecil’s Column subforum directly, creating a thread for forum users to read and respond to? Some of those threads might not go anywhere, but it’s likely that there would often be posts made asking follow-up questions or elaborating on part of the column. A thread a week could generate content which would increase interest in the CCC subforum or spawn tangential threads elsewhere and might result in more forum users reading the new columns, if nothing else.

[ultrafilter]

@Giraffe

I very rarely read the columns, and it has nothing to do with their quality, content, writing style, etc. It’s more that they don’t fit into the way I browse online – I have a set of sites I open in tabs every time I start up and nearly every one of them is an aggregator of content in some fashion: forums, blogs, a couple of online newspapers. All generally have fairly rapid turnover, and I can pick and choose what to read from a large variety of headlines / titles. Devoting a browser tab to a single article that may not have changed since my last visit, or that I may or may not find interesting if it has, doesn’t really make sense for me.

I think regular features like the Straight Dope really need to attach themselves to a good online media site to get the audience they deserve. Back when I read Salon.com, I was a devoted fan of the This Modern World comic. Once I stopped reading Salon, I haven’t seen it since. We get the San Jose Mercury News paper (in actual paper form!), and I almost always read the Mr. Roadshow column. However, there’s no chance I’d go to a standalone site just to read that one column.

For me, regular columns are a bite-sized nibble that I eat and enjoy as part of a larger buffet, not a standalone meal.

This. Even just adding an RSS feed for the columns would go a long way towards getting people like me and him to read them. I know there’s an email list, but I get too much email as is, and this is exactly the sort of thing that RSS was designed for.

[Una_Persson]

@Implicit

If you want more exposure for the new columns on the forum, why not have one of the mods/admins crosspost the column in the Comments on Cecil’s Column subforum directly, creating a thread for forum users to read and respond to? Some of those threads might not go anywhere, but it’s likely that there would often be posts made asking follow-up questions or elaborating on part of the column. A thread a week could generate content which would increase interest in the CCC subforum or spawn tangential threads elsewhere and might result in more forum users reading the new columns, if nothing else.

I think that is a good idea, provided there isn’t some issue where folks don’t want the entire column copied to here. Even still, a reduced version (such as what is sent out each week in the mailings to Members) could be done.

[RaftPeople]

@Una_Persson

Goodness…

Implicit, RaftPeople, if you honestly cannot see why it might seem unusual at first blush for someone to come to the Straight Dope message board and have no interest in the Straight Dope then you and will never have a meeting of the minds.

I never said or implied that anyone must, had to, or was obligated to read anything.

This side discussion is over.

~

If I misunderstood what you posted regarding the implication of a “duty” then I apologize. When you posted “that minuscule effort” I interpreted that to mean that “even if you aren’t really interested, it’s a minimal effort and you should do it”. But as I read the posts again, I can see that is probably not what you meant.

I would say more about the assumptions you are making vs the assumptions I am making, but it would sound argumentative (and maybe I’m wrong), so here’s a thought: maybe throw up a poll to see what people’s SD habits are, it would give you data in your quest for understanding.

[Canadjun]

@Una_Persson

Implicit, RaftPeople, if you honestly cannot see why it might seem unusual at first blush for someone to come to the Straight Dope message board and have no interest in the Straight Dope then you and will never have a meeting of the minds.

Since they are completely distinct I don’t see why it wouldn’t be surprising.

Regardless, that doesn’t answer the original question and the aborted poll. It still doesn’t explain the need for CSR and CCC to be separate since they both have almost the same mandates.

[Martini_Enfield]

@Una_Persson

Understand I’m not criticizing you personally, I just think it’s unfortunate that there are several folks on here who don’t find the columns or Staff Reports interesting or informative enough to spend a couple of minutes out of a week reading them. It would be interesting to understand why they’re not worth that minuscule effort, especially when one is posting on the Straight Dope message board. (emphasis deliberate)

No, again I’m not criticizing people again, no need for anyone to start yet another Pit thread about me…what I’m wondering is - is it that the topics aren’t interesting at all, not a single one? Is it the writing style?

I don’t read the columns for a couple of reasons. Primarily, it’s because they just don’t fit in with the way I browse the net, with an addendum of “and there’s no real links from the forum back to the main site”- as someone said, it’s presented separately. I have the messageboard bookmarked and come straight here when I’m browsing; I don’t visit the main page for the most part. Last time I did, I wasn’t impressed with the layout either, FWIW.

Secondly (and just as importantly), on the occasions when I’ve decided to drop by the columns, they’re invariably old (sorry, “Classic”) columns which are embarrassingly out of date. As in, years or even decades out of date. So, you’ve got a column written by (allegedly) The World’s Smartest Man, in which he snarks at the masses, but he’s wrong about what he’s snarking about. So you’ve got “Snarky and Condescending” combined with “Wrong/Out of date” for a result of “Unpleasant and irritating”

Honestly, I think it might be time to update the Cecil image; making him more like a kind of Intellectual version of “The Stig” from Top Gear (“Some say his face appears on Japanese banknotes, and that there’s an airport in Russia named after him…”). It’s “fun” (technically no-one knows who The Stig is, although really his identity was an open secret for some time- much like Cecil, actually), allows you to maintain the pretence that Cecil is The World’s Smartest Man in his Fortress Of Solitary Wisdom, and puts a lighter (IMHO) tone on the whole thing.

To summarise: The Cecil persona is unpleasant and abrasive to me. I don’t really care too much what he has to say about a given subject in the column because I don’t “like” the persona. That’s personal preference and others may (and probably will) disagree with me on that one, though. The SDSAB are good but I can’t help but feel that they seem like an under-used “supporting cast” in some ways, however.

I was told in a class on how “the current generation” of 20-somethings communicates that “real life is tweets…if you can’t fit your message into a tweet, then don’t bother sending it.” Something which isn’t going to happen, but still…I guess I should ask.

I’d disagree with that view- and I speak as someone with an MA in Journalism. Twitter and Social Networking all have their place, but the strength of the printed media (and I include websites in that) is in depth- you’ve got the “time” (space) to go into detail, to explore nuances. The SD is primarily a newspaper column as I understand it (It’s not published by anyone in this part of the world to the best of my knowledge), with the website a sort of afterthought, right? The sort of people who are likely to want to read the SD column are the sort of people who either want light entertainment as they read their paper in the staff room at work on their lunch-break, or aren’t really comfortable with that Internet thing they keep hearing so much about.

However, it might be worth asking: Does Cecil have an office Facebook page and/or Twitter feed? And if not, why? It’s not like they cost anything.

How about getting Cecil to post on the boards occasionally (and by occasionally, I mean “regularly”)? There’s another free way to enhance the whole Cecil thing and maybe get people a little more interested in the entity.

And finally, in relation to the OP: I absolutely agree; merge the two forums. Call them “Comments on the Straight Dope Column” and at least the forum will be slightly more active than the two ghost towns they currently are.

[Canadjun]

@Canadjun

Since they are completely distinct I don’t see why it wouldn’t be surprising.

Regardless, that doesn’t answer the original question and the aborted poll. It still doesn’t explain the need for CSR and CCC to be separate since they both have almost the same mandates.

OOPS! Reviewing what I wrote earlier this afternoon I realized I got the meaning flipped. Meant to say “Since they are completely distinct I don’t see why it would be surprising…”

[Amblydoper]

Combine the two forums.

Also, post an “official” thread for each column when it comes online and link to it at the bottom of the column. Bonus points if you can display the forum posts below the column, so someone reading it can also read the discussion.

[CaveMike]

@ultrafilter

Even just adding an RSS feed for the columns would go a long way towards getting people like me and him to read them. I know there’s an email list, but I get too much email as is, and this is exactly the sort of thing that RSS was designed for.

Agreed. My casual web surfing is all RSS-based. If I don’t have a feed for it, I eventually forget about it.

Considering the number of unofficial feeds over the years, there is obviously a demand for it. I’m not sure why it doesn’t have one.

[sandra_nz]

Another vote here for a topic thread for each SD post, this is pretty common on other sites, e.g. Xkcd.

I originally found the SDMB via the SD site, but the site now feels outdated compared to other sites I visit.

[amarone]

I came here because of the columns but now almost never read them for reasons others have given. I would like to see the forums combined for a selfish reason - to reduce the number of lines in the forum jump drop-down. However, because of the introduction of Marketplace above The Pit, I still have to page down to get to The Pit. Combine the columns and move Marketplace below the Pit and then I can see all the forums I use without having to page down.

[CarnalK]

I voted for “merge” before the poll was closed. If I were in charge, I’d then also lock the newly merged forum so that only staff could create new threads because I agree that a link to a staff-prepared discussion thread is a good idea. There is already a “comment on this” link at the bottom of each article, but it goes to the forum, instead of a thread about the article. It would help advertise the articles too, since every time a new article is put up, the corresponding new thread would also pop up for people using “find new posts”.

[dhkendall]

@Implicit

I like reading (and occasionally contributing to) in-depth discussion of topics, which is what the forum threads provide. I’m not interested in learning random trivia, which is what the columns provide.

:eek: Well, I come to the SDMB to have my ignorance fought, but never in a million years would I figured that this would be today’s ignorance fought!

I always figured that SDMBers always read the SD (after all, that is our raison d’etre - the other board I hang out in is a Jeopardy! discussion board, which is a lot like this place in terms of its conversation topics, but pretty much each and every person there is also a big watcher of Jeopardy!, hense the reason they’re on a Jeopardy! fan site. I would have thought that this was similar.)

@Exapno_Mapcase

I do read the columns, both Cecil’s and staff’s. Even for someone like me, who stays out of the more personal forums, they are a tiny, almost insignificant part of the whole Dope experience today. It’s hard to see how they can be anything else as currently presented.

I do agree that making both the straightdope.com and the Straight Dope dead tree (newspaper) version better would be more of it. I also know that there’s a backlog, but I would also think that, since we are the Teeming Millions (or are we not, and is that why there’s that term and ther’s “Dopers”, and I’m falling back on my old ignorance of “Doper” = “reader of SD”?), that Now Is The Time For All Good Dopers To Come To The Aid Of Their Column. I’d love to volunteer to answer some of the burning questions to create columns if I can (don’t know what’s out there, although I am recognized as a world’s leading expert on the subject of national anthems, if there’s anything on that in there) and if the only thing separating us from more and better SD columns is the backlog, then let’s help clear it!

@Canadjun

So, from that point of view having CSR and CC as separate forums is just clutter - it makes no difference whether what is being discussed relates to something “Cecil” wrote or something “Staff” wrote.

All the above being said, I still side with those who say CC and CSR should be combined, the places are identical, covering basically the same thing, and I’ve never seen a need for separation, even if they had lots of comments regularly.

@RaftPeople

It seems to imply that a person using the MB almost has a duty to read the columns, and you also seem to be stating that there is some benefit to either the SD or the MB or both if more users read the columns.

What is that perceived benefit?

Personally, I always thought that SD would be something that would interest a Doper, that we were all interested in learning things and having Ignorance Fought. I rarely “hang out” on places on the 'net any more because, frankly, it’s too stupid out there. Places where people are smart, and speak intelligently, are few and far between, places like my aforementioned Jeopardy! fan site, and here are two, and straightdope.com is another. “If you’re sick of having your mind turned to goop from reading the juvenility on YouTube comments or political sites, or feedback on news stories, go to straightdope.com and find none of that” I thought was the benefit.

@Amblydoper

Also, post an “official” thread for each column when it comes online and link to it at the bottom of the column. Bonus points if you can display the forum posts below the column, so someone reading it can also read the discussion.

I had a recent post in ATMB wondering how we can prevent newbies from commenting on a column and not linking, I think this is a great idea of how to fix that, I’m for that.

@CaveMike

Considering the number of unofficial feeds over the years, there is obviously a demand for it. I’m not sure why it doesn’t have one.

I’ve always pictured Cecil as something like your (not your specifically, but your generically) dad, smart, but doesn’t care for all that fancy technological breakthroughs, I can’t picture Cecil to be the type to care for a Twitter feed or a Facebook page. Heck, considering how seldom he posts here …

[CarnalK]

@dhkendall

I’d love to volunteer to answer some of the burning questions to create columns if I can (don’t know what’s out there, although I am recognized as a world’s leading expert on the subject of national anthems, if there’s anything on that in there) and if the only thing separating us from more and better SD columns is the backlog, then let’s help clear it!

It’s my understanding that the bottleneck is editing and approving for publication articles already written. Zotti or someone he specifically appoints are the only ones who can clear the backlog.

[Giraffe]

@amarone

I came here because of the columns but now almost never read them for reasons others have given. I would like to see the forums combined for a selfish reason - to reduce the number of lines in the forum jump drop-down. However, because of the introduction of Marketplace above The Pit, I still have to page down to get to The Pit. Combine the columns and move Marketplace below the Pit and then I can see all the forums I use without having to page down.

Man, I would love it if the Marketplace forum were moved below the Pit, preferably into the Side Conversations section. The IMHO-MPSIMS-Pit triangle is indelibly etched into my brain, so cramming a new forum in the middle of it is literally the worst thing that’s ever happened to me.

I haven’t had a very hard life.

[Tamex]

@sandra_nz

Another vote here for a topic thread for each SD post, this is pretty common on other sites, e.g. Xkcd.

I originally found the SDMB via the SD site, but the site now feels outdated compared to other sites I visit.

Not surprising, considering it’s changed hardly at all in the 10 years I’ve been here.

I think an official topic thread for each column post is a good idea, too. Also, link directly to that post from the column in question. Stops the second post in every thread from being, "Thank you for your comments and welcome to the SDMB. Please post a link to the column…"blah, blah, blah.