I’ve noticed a common thing that happens in current internet discourse over new shows or movies is for some on the anti side to use “bad writing” or “bad storytelling” as their complaint, when it’s obvious that not only are they, themselves, in no way a writer or qualified critic of writing, but that their issue is really about something else that they just don’t want to say. For instance, a movie with an actor that is a different race from the character as written in the original work, or a show or movie with themes of inclusion, diversity and kindness. Almost like they think if they say “bad writing” it lends more credence to their opinion than if they just said it was “woke” or that they don’t like minority actors in their media. It’s hard to counter someone saying “bad writing” because for one, its a very subjective thing, and it’s also almost certainly the case that neither them, nor I, have the bonafides to be qualified writing critics and there’s very little chance of having an educated discussion about writing quality. It’s almost like they want a shortcut to avoid having to defend their dislike, and a shield to prevent others from knowing their real issues.
Thoughts? Related experiences? Ideas on how to respond to these possibly disengenuous “bad writing” complaints?
note: to be clear, obviously there are examples of media with objectively bad writing, but this is more about things that may be controversial for other reasons and are not clearly a case of actual bad writing.
If some random person accuses a movie (for example) of having bad writing, I don’t take that as an expert opinion, just a personal opinion. I might do the same myself. I am not a trained critic, but I think I can recognize at least some bad story telling when I see it, and I am not averse to saying so.
So my question is, so what? Do you have to prove them wrong? Is no-one allowed to be wrong on the internet any more?
I do this sometimes in comments on YouTube radio dramas, and fairly often I get responses about am I a writer and what are my qualifications for passing judgment? My qualifications are that this is my opinion and I claim no more validity than that, and that a negative comment is no more or less valid in that context than a positive one.
I’m more familiar with “bad” meaning “I didn’t like it” or “I’m upset” in the context of video games, presumably because I read more opinions about video games than I do opinions about movies. A game-specific term is “unplayable” (usually used to refer to a game that many thousands of people are playing).
I don’t think you can generally argue someone out of an opinion, though.
It isn’t that nobody is allowed to be wrong. Certainly people are wrong on the internet all the time, maybe even this post you’re reading right now.
But this is about a specific tactic of using “writing” instead of being honest about what they don’t like. The reason it is a problem for me is that I don’t want my future entertainment options affected by this sort of organized review bombing from hateful people who hide behind “writing”. I’ve already had a few shows that I enjoyed cancelled due to this sort of thing.
Just to clarify, this thread was not started about people with genuine opinions about not liking writing. I don’t want to get to into the weeds about that. It’s about a specific use of that criticism to hide their true feelings such as about “race-swapping” or being “woke” or anything at all that they perceive as critical of their favored political team. They then use “bad writing” instead of their real criticism.
I don’t see what anyone can do about it. Hateful people can hide their hate in any number of ways. You can’t require them to be straightforward about it if they don’t want to be (and I’m a little encouraged that some people are apparently still ashamed of such opinions).
I question how you know that review bombings have effected the cancelation of what I presume are TV shows. Aren’t such things still controlled by economic considerations, like subscriptions or advertising revenue?
I should have said “aren’t people allowed to be dishonest on the internet any more?”
I wouldn’t even begin to know whether any rando reviewer is genuinely (albeit perhaps incorrectly?) saying a subject has “bad writing” because it actually does, or because he’s hiding his racism in coded language. How could we tell?
When I see some pinhead reviewer saying he hates something and his review makes no objective claim, I just ignore it and move on.
I don’t think rando internet reviews are responsible for cancelling shows.
Given that, I have watched enough scripted drama over my 6 decades on earth that, yes, I CAN spot “bad writing”*. I can objectively describe why I would think so. And I’ve never written a screenplay.
*eta I would more accurately call it “bad storytelling”, because it can be individually, or a combination of, writing, directing, or editing. Bad acting is different. Having a bad idea but telling it well is also different. I call that “they didn’t make the movie I would have” syndrome.
I have a college degree in English, so I am in fact a trained evaluator of the written word.
In my experience, when people talk about “bad writing,” they’re more likely to mean something like “I didn’t like the way the story went.” or “the plot went in a different direction than I wanted.” Even if the prose is well-crafted and professional, the characters are vividly drawn, and the events of the plot make sense and are clearly described, it will be called “bad writing” if the author makes a decision that is different than what the reader wanted to happen.
I see it a lot in commentary on comic books, where “bad writing” often means “My favorite superhero lost a fight to an opponent that I consider unworthy.”
If someone gives an honest critique of the writing, offering some insight into why they think that it’s bad, I will always consider that, even if I don’t agree. But if they’re just saying that they didn’t care for it, well, so what? Nobody is required to like the same things I do.
For my part, the people I encounter online who think that something is too “woke” or is “pushing an agenda” are more than willing to say so, in exactly those terms. They don’t try to hide anything.
I don’t think it’s “almost”, I think that’s what it is. Even outside of the critics who have an obvious agenda, I’ve noticed that a lot of criticism of fiction refuses to acknowledge subjective issues like personal taste exist, and insists that there is something objectively bad about a work that a person doesn’t like. Often with the implication (or outright statement) that if other people like it, that’s a sign of some kind of character flaw on their part, or outright immoral.
I think that the reaction of the more toxic end of the Star Wars fandom to the Sequel Trilogy is kind of what the OP is talking about: in general, they didn’t like having a female protagonist (Rey), a black person (Finn) in the main cast, and a woman who wasn’t willow-thin and sexy (Rose) in a prominent role.
But, even then, I don’t remember seeing them say “it’s bad writing” or “it’s bad storytelling,” per se. When they weren’t flat-out saying racist and sexist crap (and they often were), the “code” they were using for their complaints was things like, “this isn’t my Star Wars.”
Exactly! For a specific example, read the imdb reviews for FBI episodes. Everything is “woke”, or “liberal agenda”.
It’s probably only a couple individuals, but it sticks out on under reviewed shows, when they may get only 5 posts total.
They never complain about what I do: that the agents should get closer to a suspect before they yell “FBI! we want to talk to you!”, which always inevitably leads to a foot chase.
Which attitude is completely consistent with the conservative / reactionary mindset that is uncomfortable with the idea there’s more than one way to think and behave.
Whatever they believe is the Only Correct Way. All other ways are therefore by definition Wrong Ways. And should be stamped out.
This is part of what I’m talking about. It’s not “I didn’t like the story” but rather its stated as “bad writing” in an absolute way. As you say, like an objective truth. I also see the “if you liked it, then something is wrong with you”.
This is very common among Star Wars fans. I have definitely seen the “bad writing” many times about the sequels and some of the disney pus shows. I mean, I also see the people that just say directly what they mean too.
I’m a writer who has given a lot of thought to storytelling and writing, and in my experience, even though I have the ability to clearly articulate what the story was and how well it was executed, I have never once seen a single person change their mind about what they thought of something based upon my writerly opinion. You can’t counter claims of bad writing because 1) it’s subjective and 2) there’s probably a pretty good rebuttal argument to any claim about how bad or good something is written.
I happen to think Star Wars was written pretty badly but I’m not a Star Wars fan (other than Andor/Rogue One, which rock) and obviously I applaud a female protagonist. But I’m sure plenty of fans can argue it’s good storytelling actually and maybe raise some good points. I don’t know.
I think it’s a little unfair to assume that if someone thinks it’s bad writing, they don’t actually think it’s bad writing. People who are really passionate about storytelling pay attention to that kind of thing. You can have a bad take but it’s not like there’s a universal standard of knowledge someone must have in order to say something is badly written. That claim is as good as the claimant, and if you don’t know someone online, you have no idea how deeply they’ve thought it through.
How about, “I didn’t like it because of the bad writing.”
It’s just an opinion. As I said, nobody has ever changed their mind based on my impassioned defense of something I love or aggressive deconstruction of whatever they love. Which is why I feel it’s pointless to argue with someone about their view of a piece of media. I would much rather talk to other fans about how awesome it is.
If someone is going to dress up racism, sexism, anti-LGBT sentiment, or anything else under a better-sounding guise, you can’t stop them. They will express it somehow. Even if they didn’t use “bad writing” as the excuse, they could invent another cover.
To you point, I’m reasonably certain that a lot of people who say something is badly written haven’t read Campbell or McKee. I’m not really trying to say everyone is super informed about mainstream opinions about what makes good storytelling. There are probably many for whom “bad writing” means anything they want it to mean.
And particularly on the subject of female protagonists, trust me, I’ve learned my lesson well. You have to bend over backward to get people to like female characters. It’s a pain in the ass.
This is not a direct response to the premise here (I find that very difficult to do without a specific criticism about a specific piece of “bad writing”), but I got some life changing advice in my 40s. This was it: “Just because something is objectively good (or bad) doesn’t mean that you have to like (or dislike) it.” It was life changing for me because I could never really articulate why I disliked or liked certain things that were universally popular or unpopular.
More germane to the topic, I think it might be a bit disingenuous to assume that a specific subjective criticism is masking a less palatable one, especially on the internet.
