Most exercise is concentric - muscle shortens under load. But is concentric the best type of training for building muscle? If eccentric is better, it seems it’d be easy to build a machine that increased load until your muscles gave way, then maintained a load for a constant extension rate. (They have variable torque motors, right?)
You need both. A few bodybuilders experimented with all-negative movement routines and did not have the hoped for results.
Eccentric movements do allow the use of more weight-about 20-30% more on average.
And you don’t need fancy machines to do that.
Most resistance exercise, especially free weight exercise, is mixed, with both concentric (muscle shortening, occurring while lifting the weight) and eccentric (muscle lengthening, occuring while controlling the weight on the way back down) actions in each repetition.
There is research suggesting that eccentric only (done at higher intensity) can increase strength and hypertrophy more than concentric only does. I cannot find anything comparing mixed to either alone and in general when mixed approaches of other sorts (e.g. periodization) have compared to one approach only, the mixed approach has resulted in greater gains. Hence some serious lifters will include some sets emphasizing the eccentric portion (e.g. having a spotter help them get a weight up and controlling it slowly on the way back down).
Gymnastics inspired body weight exercises also generally include large eccentric components.
The downside to the eccentric portion is that it is much likely to trigger delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) the next days, which may long term limit gains.
Not sure how easy it would be to design a machine that both got people to control against near maximal resistence in a muscle lengthening fashion and to do it safely. Nor that it would be better than a mixture of different sorts of free weight sets with good slow control on the way down and adding in some gymnastics inspired body weight exercises to the mix.
Not exactly on point - and this could be a new thread - but years ago we were taught on Nautilus machines, 2 up (eccentric) and 4 down (concentric); i.e., you count to 2 on the eccentric but to 4 on the concentric. Is that still good advise? I must confess that I don’t do that any more.
I see a lot of people throw their weights in their air and then drop them. That is not going to build muscle or help you get fit. Lift the weight so it’s slow enough that there’s no momentum and you’re honestly lifting the weight and not just throwing it in the air. For isolation exercises, squeeze at the top for a moment. Then put down the weight at half the speed you lifted it up as. Make sure you are consistent, too. If you do 10 reps in a set and it takes you 45 seconds to complete that set, make sure the next time you go to the gym you do 10 reps in 45 seconds. I even time the pauses in between my sets.
Meh. Some explosive movements (plyometrics) are good too.
Your consistency is more likely working aginst you than for you. Random variation in intensity and volume (undulating periodization), including concentric, eccentric, isometric, and plyometric efforts, gives better results that slavish consistency.
barbitu8, maybe someone else knows but I have no idea how Nautilas machines work for muscle lengthening (eccentric) exercise.
I’m talking more about beginner stuff. Though I do think the whole “muscle confusion” thing is overblown.
DSeid. The machine is irrelevant
Barbitu8 then I can refer you (and Cerealbox for the other issue) to this American College of Sports Medicine Evidence based Position Stand.
Which doesn’t quite answer the question other than that the experts do advise the concentric phase to be as fast as you can do with the reistance being used and that that tradition 2:4 seems to work well. They end up advising that a novice start off with slow, that intermediate lifters use moderate, and that advanced lifters vary speed always with the intent to lift as fast as possible.
To the idea popularized as “muscle confusion” (“undulating periodization”) the Position Stand has this to say:
They discuss variations in volume and intensity and specify that undulating periodization has been found to be superior. As to its applicability as beginner stuff they do specify the risk that a beginner might rotate into too heavy too soon thus staying in the 8 to 12 rep range is advisable for novices.
I can’t say what is overblown or not. I can state that if you’ve been lifting long enough that you are no longer a novice then the expert position is to lift with at least moderate speed, that more serious lifters are advised that “the intent should be to maximize the velocity of the CON muscle action,” that consistency is less effeective than periodization and that undulating (less predictable) periodization seems to work better than either linear or reverse periodization. Of course slightly dfferent recommendations are made depending on the specific goal - strength, hypertrophy, power, or endurance.
Both should be used but eccentric reps should be used sparingly and carefully (and always with a spotter), as more weight can be used during the eccentric portion of a lift than the concentric portion. But used correctly, eccentric lifts-or “negatives”-as they’re called, can really help put on muscle and break through plateaus.
Interesting, though the way that’s phrased makes it sound like they were comparing it to superslow. My suggestion, I would think, would be considered the traditional approach. Muscle confusion isn’t necessarily periodization. I’m thinking more in the way of “well, twice a month I’ll do a completely different compound leg movement.” Thanks for that link, though. I’ll read that when I get a chance.
This thread is over 2.5 years old, but I read something recently from Dr. Mirkin, who has a website on health and exercise and also sends out emails on those subjects, that the best way is to do both the eccentric and concentric at counts of three. He said doing it that way obviates the need for more than one set. Makes sense to me because the concentric and eccentric use different muscle fibers and both are equally important. I’ve tried this the last couple sessions at the gym and the weights I had been using were more taxing this way.