The South is not the only locale where poor whites display the Confederate flag.
Drive through rural Indiana sometime (tho’ southern Indiana was a hotbed for Copperheads during the Civil War).
Dean is quite right. The Democrats will remain out of power until they learn how to reach out to poor whites.
Eleventh generation Southerner here. The ninth generation was a Confederate soldier who said, “It never would have done for the South to have won the War.”
I am a very liberal Democrat, as was my father before me. In our youth, neither of us were wealthy enough to vote Republican. He remained a person of compassion and generosity until his death.
Until Wesley Clark entered the race, I was fully a Dean supporter and may be again. But I do find his remarks associating poor whites with Confederate flag-bearing pickup trucks offensive. He has stereotyped poor whites and, in so doing, has helped to perpetuate the myth and the problem.
I used to think the Confederate flag was beautiful and that it stood as a reasonable symbol of Southern history and heritage. But too many people used it to taunt Blacks in the South and I could understand why Blacks would be offended by it and see it as a put down. Now it is mostly a racist statement where I live in the South. It may be different in other parts of the South and there are still a few people even around here who are able to separate the two issues. I’m not one of them.
From what I heard of Dean’s apology, it sounded like he was apologizing to “those who didn’t understand” what he was saying. He has yet to understand that he holds a stereotype – and that is to his disadvantage. The interesting thing to me is that Al Sharpton immediately understood that Dean had stereotyped poor whites.
I care what Al Sharpton has to say – and what anyone currently running for the Democratic nomination and in the national spotlight because of it has to say.
As a white Southern liberal, the statement didn’t offend me. I thought it was poorly worded, but the sentiment behind it–that the Democratic Party needs to bring working-class white Southerners back into the fold–is true. Do all working-class Southern whites drive pick-up trucks and display Confederate flags? No, but plenty do. Hell, I’m related to some of them.
I heard a suggestion on NPR that instead of “Confederate flag,” he should have said “NASCAR sticker.” And they’re right, that would have been a lot more in tune with the reality down here.
Some friends of mine speculate that Dean chose the Confederate flag comment very deliberately, knowing it would provoke a response from Sharpton. It was, they speculate, Dean’s attempt to replicate Clinton’s “Sister Souljah moment.”
I don’t think that’s correct, but if it is, Dean screwed up the strategy by backtracking and calling the Confederate flag a racist emblem, thereby pissing off the people whose votes he’s trying to win.
For my own part, I don’t think it was a cynical campaign move. I think Dean was trying (however awkwardly) to make a legitimate point. And his point is correct: white Southern voters have been successfully distracted from pocketbook issues by Republican politicians playing the race card, or wrapping themselves in the Confederate flag, or appealing to religion.
(And yeah, NASCAR would have been a better choice of imagery. Still a stereotype, but at least not a hot button.)
But you see, Spoke, it isn’t simply that the Pubs somehow pulled off a master stroke of propaganda and managed to persuade lower class whites in the South to vote against our own political and economic interests. It is that the Dems in general have not only basically turned their backs on us but often openly hold us in contempt.
I have yet to meet a Democrat who will make even the slightest effort to understand the entirely reasonable and just resentment that poor and working class whites (not just in the South, either) feel against affirmative action. We want strict control of illegal immigration because we have to compete with illegals for jobs, and illegal immigration drives down wages; yet the Dems, hoping to build political support and get votes from the massive influx of illegal immigrants, do every God damned thing they can to sabotage efforts to control illegal immigration. The Dems, and for that matter the left in general, has become so obsessed with race, ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation that they have almost completely oblivious to issues of class. If we attempt to talk about any of this, we’re dismissed as ignorant, racist hicks or genocidal sociopaths. If you’ll take a look around the SDMB, you’ll find lots of folks who think nothing of throwing around terms like “white trash” and “trailer trash” when speaking about poor and working class whites (and, again, not just Southerners).
Hell, at least the Pubs act like they’re glad to have us in the party. The “progressives” treat us as though we’re an embarassment like somebody’s crazy aunt who needs to be locked up in the attic and kept out of sight.
The Confederate flag for many people is not symbolic of slavery. I understand why it is for some. I respect that. But if I want to fly a rebel flag at my house, it is my right to do so. Just like it’s okay for you to display Christmas decorations or whatever else you like.
For me it is symbolic of the people’s right to question the establishment. It has honor, the honor of my ancestors, who fought for State’s Rights against a Federal government who would impose its will over the public it supposedly represented.
The majority of people in the South weren’t slave owners. These “Good Ol’ Boys” didn’t fight to preserve slavery (I admit slavery was a MAJOR factor with a few KEY players…ie: the powers that be).
But for the locals like Bubba, it was just a fight. The Yankees had invaded the South. Bubba had a chance to get off the farm for awhile and who knows, maybe come back with some medals and be a HERO. Poor ignorant Bubba got killed like so many of his fellow Rebs. (Yanks too) … died over whether or not they could KEEP the slaves that neither had (for the most part). Nope, that’s not the reason. It was a matter of principle. At least in my family.
The same bullshit happened here in Texas in 1835 too. Some government telling folks what to do and how to live. Even worse, who to marry and how/where to pray.
Well, it may be considered faulty logic but the slippery slope is a mighty strong fear. It’ll start a war pretty quick, even today.
Yeah, I’ve got an authentic Confederate flag in my office. Sorry if that offends you. Odds are there’s a few other things I’ve got that would offend other folks as well. I guarantee you I get aggravated at other peoples offensiveness. But I’m not likely to grab the punk and tell him to turn that shit down. 
**So, now Dean is of the opinion that blue-collar Southerners are all confederate flag-waving yahoos.
What’s next? Will he try to attract black voters by voicing his support of watermelon, fried chicken, and tap-dancing?**
I suppose this makes me a yahoo. A black yahoo at that, cause I love fried chicken. :rolleyes:
Hi, t-keela. I understand what you meant when you said:
There is no real honor in symbols – only in the thing symbolized. Think of the flag as a word that has come to have two meanings – one more commonly understood than the other. The first and mostly commonly understood meaning for the “Word” is hatred, slavery, disrespect. And the second and less frequently used meaning of the Word is * States’ Rights*. Is it really worth the hurt to the pride of others just to honor the concept of States’ Rights?
Maybe we should have another symbol for the South.
I think Dean clarified pretty well what he thinks of the mentality of Southerners in a statement he made a few days ago:
You can’t get much clearer than that.
Not surprisingly, I know some Southern conservatives who went out of their way to get offended by the clarification.
“He’s stereotyping us again!”
Spare me. Dean is dead on.
My only concern is that there may be a perception that the South is strictly a blue collar place. You’d better be able appeal to white collar middle class concerns to win votes here.
My biggest beef with Democratic candidates is that they don’t take the time to explain how Republican policies harm the middle class. Instead, they resort to sound bites: “Bush is giving tax cuts to the wealthy!”
“Well yeah, but he’s giving tax cuts to everybody,” comes the disingenuous reply from the talk radio boys, “and naturally the wealthy get more tax cuts because they pay more taxes!”
Democrats need to get into detail and explain how eliminating estate tax and slashing capital gains tax shifts the tax burden from people who don’t work for their money (i.e. people who inherit money they didn’t earn and live on investment income) over to people who earn their money by the sweat of their brow. Arguing this point will have appeal both to blue collar workers AND to the white collar middle class of the South, if explained properly. Hard work is valued here, and an argument pointing out that Republicans are taking money from working people to give to the leisure class will pull in votes.
I think most people don’t realize what the Republicans are up to with their fiddling with the tax code. Democrats need to explain it in forceful terms.
Sure, but details do not make for good sound bites, and that’s critical in today’s media. Is it any surprise that all of the major claims of the Bush Administration can be summarized in short sentences of eight words or less?
“Terrorists hate us for our freedoms.”
“You deserve to get your money back.”
“No child left behind.”
“Axis of Evil.”
Not that this sort of oversimplification is accurate, but it does sell…
Count me as being supportive of Dean on this one. All he was really trying to say was that he didn’t want to exclude disenfranchised southerners. He wasn’t making a statement about southerners in general, nor was he endorsing the Confederate flag. He was talking about reaching out to demographic that Democrats have pretty much written off in the last couple of decades.
I also give credit to Dean for not punking out and apologizing for his words. He stood up for himself instead of caving in to PC whining.
I am chillingly reminded of my nearly lily-white Indiana childhood home. Nope, no stereotyping of non-whites happened there. Instead, everybody was “dead on” about them–just ask the other whites.
Dean supporters to making claims like this is identical to David Duke supporters claiming that KKK racist claims can’t be stereotyping because they are “dead on”.
Nice try, Dogface, but I am a hillbilly myself, raised in north Georgia. You’re going to have a hard time painting me as someone who is out of touch with Southern sentiment and Southern voting patterns. So spare us the crocodile tears you are shedding on behalf of poor offended Southerners.
Where Dean is “dead on” is in his conclusion that Republicans have used race and religion to distract Southern voters from their economic interests. His phrasing (as I said earlier) may have been awkward, but he is essentially correct.
I don’t agree that Republican policies are adverse to the interests of Southern voters, and I find it half-scary and half-funny that when Southern voters vote Republican, the Democratic assumption is that they have been “fooled,” somehow, by divisive issues of race or sexual orientation.
That said, I don’t think Dean said anything offensive. His comment was a short-hand way of referring to a voting demographic, and I don’t see what the problem is. The other Democratic candidates are either obtuse or using the chance to score cheap points.
That Republican tax policies are ultimately harmful to the majority of Southern voters (i.e. the working class / middle class)seems clear to me. You may disagree, and we can debate that in another thread.
What I do not think is debatable is that Republicans have wrapped themselves in the Confederate flag and held the Bible aloft at every opportunity. (Do you seriously deny this?)
Now maybe you think the Confederate flag and prayer in schools are truly the pressing concerns of the day, but I say they are being used as distractions to keep voters from focusing on Republican rob-from-the-middle-class, give-to-the-rich economic policy.
I certainly characterize it differently.
Republicans, as champions of the general concept of states’ rights - that is, the party that seeks to limit federal power in favor of state power - “wrap themselves in the Confederate flag” only insofar as that’s a symbol of states’ rights. The fact that it also symbolizes oppression is unfortunate, but in no way suggests that Republicans favor oppression.
“[Holding] the Bible aloft,” suggesting that courts have gone too far in their interpretation of the Establishment Clause, is also perfectly appropriate.
If a majority of Southern voters find that these concerns resonate with them, then it seems to me that the inescapable conclusion is that today’s GOP represents the interests of Southern voters more accurately than does today’s Democratic party.
Southerners (black and white) have an unfortunate obsession with the Confederate flag (whether they support it or oppose it). They also have an unfortunate obsession with religious symbols in public places.
At the end of the day, a Confederate flag flying over the courthouse doesn’t add or subtract one penny from my pocket. At the end of the day, a plaque of the ten commandments sitting inside a courthouse does not affect my life in any significant way.
What does affect me is the seeming determination of Republicans to eliminate taxes for a large segment of the very wealthy (by seeking to eliminate estate taxes, taxes on dividends, and capital gains taxes) leaving the people who work for a living to carry more than their fair share of the nation’s tax burden. That affects my wallet. It affects the wallet of every middle class person, every working class person, Southern or not, black or white.
But Republican tax code shenanigans get ignored in the South amid the continual demagoguery over symbols.
To cite one example, Republican Sonny Perdue didn’t get elected governor of Georgia because he had a superior economic plan for the state. Hell, as far as I can tell, he didn’t have any economic plan for the state. He got elected because he wrapped himself in the Confederate flag.
There is a difference between addressing the concerns of the citizenry and pandering to their obsessions.
(And the question of what the Confederate flag stands for is an issue for another thread. It means different things to different people, of course. But whatever you think it stands for, there is no denying its divisiveness. It is a wedge.)
So, you see nothing wrong with using “Fried chicken and watermelon-eaters” as a "short-hand way of referring to black voters, right? After all, you’re not just some hypocrite happy to make any pathetic excuse for your boy, right?
Lighten up a bit, Dogface. No one is completely immune to all racial, ethnic, religious or class prejudice. Dean’s statement was a bit thoughtless, perhaps, but his heart really was in the right place, and there’s just no need to jump all over him for something as trivial as this. We really are much too touchy about things like this these days.
Bear in mind I’m the guy on this board who usually throws a hissy fit when someone around here uses terms like “white trash” or “hillbilly.”
Dean and the Democrats need a southern strategy. That is a certainty. The Deep South is already lost to any existing Democratic candidate because support for the war, conservative Democrats, and a large serving of religious conservatism rule politics for the most part. Most of those in the traditional Bible Belt are predisposed to voting for Bush based on the continuing necessity of pandering to Democratic primary voters and the commercials that will produce.
The flag non-issue is very big in GA, SC, and Ole Miss.* Focusing on that detracts from winning D issues in those states like health care for proportionally-challenged smokers, gun control :dubious:, race-based affirmative action :dubious:, etc.
Florida, OTOH, is another kettle of fish entirely. We mostly care about our supply of Alligator-bites-girl-in-thong postcards. All I want for Christmas is: new irons, public transportation AND bigger roads, lobster at every Dean fundraiser, and go right of Bush on the war. Oops, he lost me.
Everyone in the South, save Carpetbaggers, likes fried chicken. I find watermelon chalky, but other Crackers don’t. This stuff was comedy back in the late 1970s. I think PC preventing us from discussing stereotypes and negative opinions (especially silly opinions) increases actual hostility. The KKK goes on talk shows just to get anyone to listen. They are marginalized in the extreme. The New South, especially Florida – since that Reconstruction thing, yee haw, what a mess – is becoming integrated and urban. You should check it out.
I tried to post something like this a while ago. I swear it went through. Hamsters are strange devious creatures.
*You own us, daddy.