Forgive me for sounding like a Pollyanna, but we’re talking about a high school student here. He might be wearing the hoodie for intimidation, or he might just think it’s a cool southern pride thing. Is there an opportunity to speak with him about it before the school board, the NAACP and the ACLU get involved?
I agree with those who say it should be banned, but have a word with the kid first.
I’m sorry, they don’t do this already?
Frankly, the “I like the guys who enslaved your ancestors”, is a bullshit line to take. It’s the part of Southern History you’re not supposed to have pride in. I’m a Yankee fan, I don’t take pride in their 2004 performance, up 3-0 in the series then losing 4 straight to the hated Red Sox. You remember it, but you don’t celebrate it.
I’ve been near a few dudes wearing swastikas and while I was surprised they so brazenly announced to the world they were assholes I can’t say I was particularly intimidated by them just for existing.
I recommend the OP acts like an adult and speaks directly to the administration about their concerns regarding the Confederate flag. I know I don’t hold those who try to manipulate me to get what they want in high regard and I doubt many others do either.
Yes, and all of the differences are against the confederate flag. For instance, that flag was flown exclusively by those actively making war against the United States, while the swastika flag was also flown on the German home front by those who merely approved of the trains running on time. And while both symbols have a history of being used to oppress people in this country, the Confederate flag has a much greater history of that.
As hard as this might be to believe, in a country of 350 million people, not everyone agrees on this. Even if it is, so what. The standard for regulation of speech in a school isn’t that its wrong, the standard is that it has a history of causing disruption in that school. Even in my ultra liberal state and ultra liberal area, fights don’t break out when Jim Bob comes riding through town with the Confederate Flag on his pickup. The OP mentioned nothing about a disruptive effect of the clothing, and seems to be the only one that even took note of it.
Exactly my point. We don’t allow speech to be banned just because we don’t like it, because the other side then gets to ban speech just because they don’t like it.
So, again, your interpretation of the standard is that swastikas or klan robes are okay so long as there is no history of swastikas or klan robes causing disruption in that school? Or can we agree that some symbols are hate speech and inherently disruptive?
We can absolutely agree that some are inherently disruptive, but not that the Confederate Flag has met that standard.
That clears up your position nicely, thank you.
Hmmm. Not sure I find this 100% convincing. In general, that’s how the US applies the First Amendment for the general public, but Schools have always been a troublesome battle between the First Amendment and creating a safe haven for education. Your argument about ‘Jim Bob’ in his pickup driving through town is most emphatically not the same as being in class paid for by the state and/or federal government for education of minors.
As for @Odesio 's suggestion about ‘acting like an adult’, that presumes that said administration is not inherently hostile to the POV, which seems unlikely given that other members of the staff saw zero issues with the flag, and the OP’s spoken concern of retaliation when they have financial need for the job.
Of all the options mentioned, I back the OP’s - bring it up during the anonymous portion of the weekly meeting. If it doesn’t get mentioned even after being submitted, or it’s blown off without discussion, then consider the ACLU, or even bringing it up to parents of any POC that you have contact with through the school.
Respectfully, you’re combining two of my posts, responding to different points from different comments.
Of course not everyone agrees on this. There are also people who disagree with the propositions that the swastika (as used on the Nazi flag) is offensive, or the proposition that black people should not be enslaved, or the proposition that we shouldn’t murder each other.
Those people are wrong. If you want to argue that the Confederate battle flag is not offensive, you need a better argument than “lots of people fly it”.
If I want to argue that it’s not unequivocally offensive, I have to show more than lots of people ARE NOT offended by it? What a strange standard. Now, if you are arguing that it SHOULD be unequivocally offensive, you’ll get no argument from me.
Schools don’t need to protect the children who don’t think it’s offensive, who aren’t belittled by it, aren’t marginalized by it and aren’t hurt by it. The fact that there may be many of them is irrelevant.
Schools are supposed to protect the children who are offended, belittled, marginalized and harmed. If these children exist, and you have not shown that they don’t, they deserve to be protected by the government who is acting in loco parentis, while they attend publicly funded and administrated education.
This is like putting a centerfold up in the office. The fact that dozens of your office mates think it’s an awesome picture doesn’t change the fact that others find it offensive, and you can’t reference the guys who love big boobs as a reason to let it stay.
This was in response to Chronos statement, not related to the school, that the C.F. is unequivocally offensive.
No one is entitled to not be offended. I agree with the rest, and so do the Courts. This is why there is a standard that allows schools to ban speech that has a history of causing disruption. No one has shown me yet that the C.F. should be automatically on that list, without more.
You’re burdent shifting here. It’s not my burden to prove something doesn’t exist. It’s also not the school’s or government’s job to protect against every possible offense, no matter how sincere. Christian students find the LGBTQ flag to be utterly offensive. Do they deserve protection against seeing a symbol they hate too?
Would you like to step back and look at this for a minute and reconsider whether this is something you want to stand behind?
No, if you want to show that it’s not offensive, then you have to show that nobody is offended by it (or at least, that the group of people offended by it is very small).
To be clear, those who only valued the relative stability the Nazis brought, even at the expense of all of the atrocities they committed, were also reprehensible. But they were less reprehensible than the ones who were actively committing the atrocities.
The Confederate battle flag was used as a symbol specifically by those who were committing atrocities, not by those who merely tolerated atrocity. And that makes it worse than the Nazi swastika.
You need not limit yourself to looking at this as a dress code compliance issue. The Plano ISD student code of content reads that students are responsible for “Exhibiting an attitude of respect toward others, even when others do not.” It’s possible your code of conduct includes similar language and it could be argued that wearing the Confederate flag is contrary to an attitude of respect toward others.
I think one of the reasons why clothing with tobacco and alcohol products aren’t allowed is because they run contrary to the mission of the school rather than any belief that such images are disruptive or offensive. So maybe the Confederate flag subverts the school’s mission.
It’s entirely possible they’re hostile to the OP’s point of view but that doesn’t make them hostile towards the OP. I’ve had employees try to manipulate me in order to get answers they want and it invariably sours my relationship with them. And it could be that they see zero issues with the flag because they’re used to it. If the OP came to them in a straightforward manner to discuss the issue they might have cause to rethink their position.
It’s time to limit the Confederate flag and statues of Confederate generals to museums and battlefield historic parks. True, there are some people who are not offended by it. But there are many for whom that symbol tells them that they are not fully welcome in the area and live in fear of violence and discrimination. It’s time to say enough is enough. You don’t fly Confederate flags, you don’t honor the traitors who fought to continue slavery, just as you don’t erect statues of Hitler and fly the swastika. The sooner we bury these symbols of hatred the better.
I have never once argued that there aren’t people that are sincerely offended by it. What I have argued is that there are other, non-offensive messages that many people convey and perceive with and from the C.F. You may find that wrong, and want to change that perspective, but we are just not there yet.