The Confederate Flag in public schools.

Great Debates
1

What should a public school’s regulations regarding students’ (and teachers’, if you like) wearing, display or other use of the Confederate Flag be?

I went to school in a small-ish Central Illinois town, and the symbol could be found on a small subset of students’ clothing and decals on their cars. In many of the smaller, rural, nearly-all white schools around ours, it was more prevalent. And this is Illinois, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the issue came up more often in the South.

I remember a couple years back when a teenage girl was barred from attending a prom wearing a dress she had made patterned after the flag. We had a GD thread here.

Now two boys were ejected from a highschool multicultural assembly after unfurling a Confederate flag from the balcony. They said it was meant to “show Southern pride,” but one also said, “Me and Kevin, we don’t believe in slavery or anything else that goes along with the symbol.”

One of the boys’ fathers said:

The principal declined to say anything about whether the boys will be disciplined, and none of the students interviewed say they think there will be any retaliation against them. Article here.

So, what’s a proper policy for public schools to set? Anything? Nothing? Somewhere in between?

2

Also, by way of disclaimer, I’m white, I grew up in the Midwest, I have no family connection to the South that I’m aware of and I’ve never owned a Confederate Flag of any sort.

3

If people who claim to value the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage wanted to prevent it from becoming as much a racist icon as a swastika, then maybe they could have spoken up when it was put to use as the banner for American apartheid, lynchings, and opposing Civil Rights. But the fact remains, it was used as a symbol for all those things, something to throw in the face of African Americans as a sign that they’d better never believe that they could ever be safe to speak their minds or function in polite society.

If anyone did speak up, it was too little, too late.

I don’t know how I feel about public schools, where unfurling banners that essentialy proclaim white superiority regardless of what anyone claims they mean, are pretty darn disruptive and fighting words. But I’m of course always inclined to lean on the side of not supressing expression.

4

I’m for freedom of speech and expression and I see no reason why schools ought to restrict them. There were rebel flags galore at my high school and nobody gave a damn. I remember seeing a black football player riding in a big red pickup with a confederate flag on it, with his white teammate, one day after school. Such things were common.

5

And maybe the Black guy just didn’t say anything because he didn’t want to be excluded from the group…

Freedom of speech is not the same for school kids as it is for adults. I think school officials should have some discretion as to what they allow in a given school, since kids can’t learn in a disprutive environment. I’d have to look at each case individually, but this looks more like some kids trying to stir up trouble. That flag is extremely hurtful to a large segment of our population, and I don’t have much problem with school officials putting restrictions on its use.

6

I’m conflicted.

One the one hand, there’s absolutely no question in my mind there’s a still living breathing active racist faction out there that holds, owns, sells, buys, regards and displays the Confederate rebel flag as a hate symbol of white supremacy, and (this is where my bigotry kicks in) despite what rebel flag (or the Navy Jack) supporters say about not hating anybody, I believe in my heart most of them lying motherfuckers are at the very least deep bigots, anti-immigrant, hateful and potentially violent, and they’d be all too happy to see my black ass dead, in jail or back in Africa. When I worked in Greenville, South Carolina late last year there was a flea market in Greer I visited on several occassions where a booth owner openly sold BIG, BILLOWING rebel flags, Nazi paraphernalia with and all kinds of racist cracker bling bling on Conderate textile shirts, mini-flags and cell phone covers, emblazoned with charming slogans such as “I be ready to kick yo’ ass,” “White. Right. Pro-Life. Reich.” and “Jew wanna start something?”

So I say to you, very respectfully, Argent Towers: please don’t tell me that you can’t see ANY reason why schools ought to restrict them.

On the other hand, I am also aware there is another faction of Southern Confederacy aficianadoes, gentleman who have very sensitive, frank discussions and we treat each other with great courtesy; who hold the flag in dear esteem, who hold it as a crest toward family and regional history of the South they love, who do not hate minorities, who hold no ill will towards me just because I’m black.

I am also aware there are even black Southerners who drape themselves in the Confederate flag. This puzzles and often infuriates the hell out of me.

But let’s say I’m prepared to at least tolerate this.

Now I am an Afrocentric educator. I have had the bendera in my classroom along with an American flag. I know in my heart I do not teach hatred and intolerance and I have displayed that flag with cultural pride. Yet I know there are those who misuse the bendera as a symbol of black supremacy, and that hatred does not reflect me.

But if I can revere the bendera as a symbol of African-American pride without malice toward another group, perhaps I can trust that there are those who revere the rebel flag for its heritage without hate and malice, too.

Perhaps.

You’ll understand my skepticism, Argent Towers. (I don’t know why I’m picking on you.)

7

I’m white, of Southern extraction, a public school teacher, and I think the symbol is one of hetred and stupidity. “Southern point of view” my ass. Grow up, ya fucking rednecks. Displayed at an assembly? Get used to hard time, boys. You stepped in it real good.

8

Where were all these Confederate flag loving gentlemen who spoke up in the South against having their sacred flag desecrated by racist purposes and causes?

9

Sitting on the fence between the segregationists and civil rights protesters, most likely.

Very occassionally they speak up now. When I marched on the state capital in South Carolina in 1999 to get the Confederate flag permanently removed from from atop the building there, there was a guy from the chamber of commerce who addressed the marchers at the rally: said he was a Southern patriot and a civil rights worker – but he admitted that people like himself sat back and allowed the flag to be associated with racist groups and now they were paying the price for it. He said he recognized that the flag does not speak for all South Carolina citizens and that it’s position atop the capitol was “not a welcoming thing.”

10

As hinted at above, why do people who love the South so much, but aren’t racists, use the Confederate Navy Jack? The Southern Cross has a long tradtion of racism and bigotry, so displaying it is automatically abrasive to a certain subset of people. Although it is instantly recognizable as a Southern symbol, it is also a symbol of “the War of Northern Aggression.” By my count, there are atleast 3 other flags that could be displayed, or 5 if you include the Bonnie Blue and the battle flag.

In fact, I would think the “Stars and Bars” would be a far better symbol for Southen pride, since it was the first flag of the Confederacy. Once lifted over Alabama, it spread quickly throughout the Southern states, instantly becoming a symbol for Southern pride.

Unfortunatly, in battle, it resembeled the American flag too much, which lead to the Confederate battle flag, which eventually lead to the Navy Jack. Since there is no longer any smoke to confuse the American flag with, and since the flag does not inherently contain generations and decades of racial sentiments, and since it is the first Southern flag, why not use it instead? If Southern Pride is what you want, why not choose a more original, less tainted one?

Besides, when was the last time you saw anyone wear a Navy Jack outside of land? That in itself is silly, the fact that people don’t even use the battle flag, which is just a lighter, squarer version.

I’ll buy the Southern Pride angle when I stop believing people adorne themselves with it just to see if they can get away with it, since choosing the Navy Jack is controversial yet meaningless.

11

And a question for all those people who love their heritage so much. South Carolina (to pick one example) has been part of the United States for over two hundred years. Before that it was part of the British Empire for over a century. And it was part of the CSA for less than six years. So what is it about those six years that made them so special?

12

I’m not all that offended by the flag but I understand other people are. I don’t see a good reason to ban the display of the flag by students though teachers might not want to wear it.

Now that I support. You don’t get to disrupt an assembly without getting into some trouble.

Marc

13

In general I think that schools need to have some ability to regulate what students wear. While you don’t check your freedom of speech at the door, you do agree to a certain level of conduct when you enter a school. The primary purpose is education and something that is obviously going to distract from that needs to be kept out.

I have seen uses of the flag that it seems society considered fairly harmless.

For example, the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazzard. It doesn’t seem people get too upset about that even to this day. When I was growing up there was a subset of the population who used the flag not to symbolize anything to do with the South at all, but the general idea of being a “rebel.” I considered that to be a fairly stupid use of the flag, but one that wasn’t really racist either.

I have seen some oversensitivity to the flag also.

In the junior high I went to school in there was a mural on one of the walls drawn by some local artist way back when that depicted a civil war battle (one fought not far from the school itself.) It displayed prominently a Confederate Army with the battle flag flying, as well as prominently a Union Army with the (then) flag of the United States flying.

I heard about five years ago the image was painted over because someone complaied the flag display was offensive.

14

I find that very interesting because I went to Williamsburg, VA and I purchased the yellow Gadsen flag that also has a rattlesnake and the words “Don’t Tread on Me” written across the bottom. I purchased it because I’m a big fan of the Revolutionary War era and I thought it’d make a pretty nifty addition to my home office. Is the Gadsen flag also a symbol of bigotry, anti-immigration, and hatefully potentially violence because I just thought it was a piece of history. Ok, maybe the potential violence is implied if you’re British. I know the U.S. Navy still flies the Navy Jack on the USS Kittyhawk and will fly it on whatever ship is currently the oldest one in service.

Color be surprised to hear the racist groups have used this flag. I’m used to seeing the stars & bars, the swastika, and sometimes the American flag but not the Navy Jack or Gadsen flag.

Please, help me fight my ignorance, what’s a Bendera?
Marc

15

I don’t think those school children really had a chance to have “spoken up”. :rolleyes:

16

When is the South going to rejoin the United States?
It’s not “Southern pride”, it’s “Confederate pride”.

Why wave that flag, unless you want to express support for the Confederacy, and the goals of the secession.
Can you wave this flag and claim (pre 1990) “it’s the last flag unified Germany had”, and your only showing your German pride?
Something that expresses my view more eloquently Link.

17

Yeah, that sums it up pretty well. There is also a difference between Nazi use of the swastika and the various Confederate designs. Swastikas were an ancient symbol used in many different cultures before the Nazis came around and tainted them. The Confederate designs have no such prior history - they are purely symbols of secession over the issue of slavery.

18

It didn’t happen all at once so that it was suddenly noticeable. When I was growing up and in my college years, it was known as the “Rebel flag” and was just largely considered by the people that I knew to be a symbol of the South – not of racism at all. The same was true of the song “Dixie.” I remember that Ole Miss used the Rebel flag at football games and that one of the local television stations where I lived signed on the air in the mornings by playing “Dixie.”

I really don’t remember when it began to be used more and more as a symbol of bigotry, but when it became obvious, we did speak up and we still do. (I take it that you did not intend to exclude women from your question.)

I used to think the flag was beautiful, but now it makes me cringe because it is used to taunt and hurt people.

It wasn’t being part of the CSA that makes South Carolina special. It’s being part of the South. The Confederate flag continued to be a symbol of the South long after if ceased to be a symbol of the Confederacy. Now it has ceased to be a symbol of the South and has become a symbol of bigotry used even in the North.

FTR, when we say that we love our heritage, that doesn’t mean that we are proud of having been slave states anymore than New York or Massachusetts is proud of having been slave states.

Back to the OP:

SCOTUS ruled that students can wear pretty much what they want to unless it is disruptive. I would think that wearing Confederate flags on t-shirts has the potential for being disruptive in certain parts of the country. It would certainly be provocative here in Nashville.

I haven’t read the link in the OP yet. But if the unfurling of the flag caused a disruption, then I would think that the school administrator would be within her or his rights in banning further such demonstrations. After that, she or he would probably have to play it by ear to see what causes actual problems before banning anything else.

I just hope that teachers take advantage of the situation for some guided debates in the classroom about freedom of expression vs harassment, etc.

19

It’s kind of a weak and rambling link. He doesn’t consider the U.S. Civil War to have been a civil war because only one side were civilians so it doesn’t fit the definition of “a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country.” From what I can remember both Union and Confederate soldiers, at least those born in these United States, were citizens. Being in the military doesn’t make one a non-citizen.

I sometimes call it the War Between the States and I don’t consider myself a Confederate apologist. I do sometimes refer to it jokingly as the War of Northern Aggression. At any rate, War Between the States seems like an accurate description to me.

I especially love how he jumps on Confederate war crimes and points a few of them out but goes on to excuse Union atrocities because “they didn’t start the war.”

Marc

20

You mean this? Nah.

It’s listed rather prominently in the Anti-Defamation League’s visual symbols of hate groups. They seem to be real popular at that Greer flea market, too. Ever since the rebel flag came down from atop the South Carolina state capitol, it’s been mushrooming all over the rural parts of the state on people’s pickups, T-shirts, storefronts and whatnot. There’d been a real stubborn boycott of this barbeque joint called Duke’s because he refused to take down his flag when his (mostly black) customers objected-- I left town before it was resolved. It may still be flying, I don’t know.

Kwanzaa flag. The colors denote black, for skin; red, for blood shed during slavery and oppression; and green, for either prosperity or Africa.