I meant to add this to the last post. Accidently hit the submit reply button.
The Hammer and Sickle was used and is used as a symbol for workers to this day. It was used in the fight for civil rights, union rights, against the death penalty and for other causes. The people who find it so offensive that they would attack someone for waving it can be lumped into one of several categories. Morons who know nothing of history; southern racists who enjoy flying the confederate battle flag; and Nazis.
Which one are you spoke-?
Yes, it’s not the best flag to be waving. I would recomend that those who wave it switch to a plain red flag. It doesn’t symbolize the same backwards government that the hammer and sickle do, and it’s much more stylish.
This guy’s got a lot of CSA flag info, including pictures.
DISCLAIMER: I don’t know a thing about the politics of the above linked site. He doesn’t seem rabid, unlike a couple other sites I just hit. And I refuse to link to anyone with Klan or supremacist banners. Guess I’m just funny that way.
This from the person who can’t even present a coherent argument against communism. Tell you what. Write an argument that makes sense to a rational human and we’ll talk.
Suh-weeet! Quality, stellar rant. 9.9 including extra points for feeling, form, and authenticity. I’m all choked up.
oldscratch:
Re: the OP; I’ll hold 'em while you kick 'em til they shake like a dog shitting razor blades.
Re: communism; I’m calling you out. Communism has been a lot of things over the past century or so, but it just doesn’t work. Tell you what, I’ll go do a little searching so’s I don’t rehash too many points and then start a thread. I’ll warn you in advance I don’t have a helluva lot of time, so I can only go 10 rounds or so. But I think I have something original to say that will fit in that much space. Might have to let you get the last punch in tho. See you at high noon, Pilgrim.
Personally I have no problem if a person wishes to display the confed. flag on their own property…
Now, over a state capital? I dont think so. It is improper to fly any other flag over a state capital beside the US flag, the state flag, and other desgniated flags for related days (POW/MIA flag on vet. day, etc)
So nothing specific about the confed. flag.
…for more silky smooth segues, write to “silky smooth segues” 610 n 10th street, Albuquerque NM 87109.
I don’t own a Confederate Battle Flag, but for the sake of argument, lets say I do. Lets also say I have written something on it that is guaranteed to piss you off. South Florida is a long way from California so coming here would be out of your way, right? Come on down and physically assault me. Please.
Sigh. It is not up to me to prove that Communism won’t work. It is up to you, as the proponent of the philosophy, to prove that it will work, and work better than the system we have now.
Nevertheless, I believe I asked a couple of questions in the other thread which you have yet to answer cogently: What is my incentive to work harder in a communist system? I won’t get any extra pay for it. What is my incentive to invent a new widget? I won’t profit from it.
(And please spare me the malarkey about the warm, fuzzy feelings of cameraderie, and how, gosh, just knowing you are building a better society will be enough incentive. Absolute bullshit. Most folks will slack off if they can, and if you have a brain in your head, or any experience at all in the real world, you would know that.)
Communism has never worked, and it never can work. If you think it can, then either you are a deluded idealist cloistered in an ivory tower, or you are an imbecile. Which is it?
Only one or two, Drain, and it was only because I did a sloppy search. Re-searching in Yahoo pulled up a buttload of good non-political CSA flag sites.
I’ll probably be sorry for posting here, but I own a few “confederate flags”. The one I assume we are discussing (crossed bars and thirteen stars) is actually the Navy Jack and was merely a part of another flag.
I honestly see these flags as more of a symbol of states rights than of slavery. The industrialized North really didn’t really give the South much choice other than to fight. The people who think the South had a monopoly on slavery should look more closely at the Emancipation Proclaimation. Lincoln didn’t free all the slaves, just the ones in the states that were still fighting. The north got to keep theirs.
One quick clarification, then I’ll shut up and take my come-uppence like a man. The flags I have are part of a collection and I don’t wave them to get a rise out of folks.
Also, I should have said the “southern” states that were still fighting.
Right on Needs2know! Blistering rant…and right on the $$$.
What kills me about the “heritage” crowd down here is the singleminded fixation on the War of the Northern aggression to the exclusion of the previous 300+ yrs. of colonial and antebellum history.These yahoos know DICK about the region, its traditions and history,save for a very narrowly prescribed,Hollywood-ized glamorized snippett.
My ansestors, yeoman farmers in the Appalachian Mnts. of NC sent NO SONS to the war,as they owned no slaves (as was the case with the vast majority of non Black southerners) they viewed the war as treasonous and aided deserters from BOTH sides, knowing it was a rich mans war in which they had no stake.
…and do not decive yourself, the war was fought to secure white superiority, and to secure the subjegation of the human capital upon which the plantation economy rested first and fomost, to quote “little” Alec Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy, in referring to the Confederate government: “Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery…
is his natural and normal condition.” [Augusta, Georgia, Daily Constitutionalist, March 30, 1861.] …or try this one:From the diary of James B. Lockney, 28th Wisconsin Infantry, writing near Arkadelphia, Arkansas (10/29/63): “Last night I talked awhile to those men who came
in day before yesterday from the S.W. part of the state about 120 miles distant. Many of them wish Slavery abolished & slaves out of the country as they said it was the cause of the War, and the Curse of our Country& the foe of the body of the people–
the poor whites. They knew the Slave masters got up the war expressly in the interests of
the institution, & with no real cause from the Government or the North.”
Oh, and correct me if I am wrong but,uh, aren’t Black people southerners too?
That argument is so damned old and tired it needs to be shot, like a lame horse. States rights my ass! I’m so sick of hearing about states rights! Everytime someone challenges a good old boy he starts bawling states rights. And what right was it that brought this all about in the first place? That’s right, the right for each state to decide if they could continue to OWN SLAVES! Stop using that tired old crap to justify that needless war. Stop trying to make it sound like it was a sweet and noble thing for thousands of hard scrabble farmers, tradesmen and even children to fight and give their lives so a few snot nosed rich guys could hang onto their lavish lifestyle. There was no glory in that war for either side. I know you’ve been indoctrinated to believe that there is something wrong here in the South. That somehow we got short changed, or there was some kind of permanent damage done to the Southern States politically, economically, and culturally. That just isn’t true. We have every bit as much political power as any other of the states. We have beautiful cities, industry, agriculture, great institutions of higher learning, and cultural diversity. Hey, we even have better manners than a lot of our Northern neighbors, and we cook better too! You’ve just been spoon fed this nonsense for so long that you can’t even accept what your own eyes tell you. Visit Charleston, Atlanta, Baton Rouge, or even Richmond, we are thriving here! And doing it every bit as well as anywhere else in this country! Heck, we even get along better with minorities than they do. Haven’t heard of any cops in Atlanta or Jacksonville beating some black guy to death for a traffic violation lately have you?
We can be proud of who we are and where we come from without using that war and symbols of that war as our hallmark. We owe it to ourselves. This attitude is one of the reasons the rest of the country imagines us to be a bunch of sheet wearing, inbred, uneducated, rednecks.
Thank you very much Writefetus. One night I suggested to my current boyfriend that we spend the next afternoon at a local art gallery in town. Guess what he said to me…Well we could go to the museum of the Confederacy! Duh! I couldn’t believe it! Here I was suggesting that we spend the afternoon looking at ART and he brings up that tired old crap. Naturally we argued. Why would I want to look at those tired old pictures of J.E.B. Stuart, Lee, and Pickett. I’ve seen civil war bullets before I’ve got a can full of them in the top of my closet! I live within spitting distance from the crater at Petersburg and he wants me to waste my afternoon oohing and aaahing over crap that’s been shoved down my throat all my life! GET A GRIP! We decided never to bring up THAT WAR again.
We did go to the gallery and compromised later by walking the grounds of St. John’s church. (For those of you interested…St. John’s is where Patrick Henry gave his “give me liberty or give me death” speach. He had forgotten that our state had more to offer in the way of history than Confederate history. Another weekend we went to Williamsburg for a cookout with his friends, and we walked up Duke of Glouster Street. I just might have gotten to him a little.
No, as I said before, the southern cross was also the Confederate Battle Flag, used by mounted and foot troops from late 1861 throught the end of the war. It was square, with a white border, though many variants were used by various field commanders. The naval jack was rectangular and unbordered, and many variants were used by various naval commanders as well.
And yes, the same design was also found in the canton of the Second and Third National flags. So what? It was still there, and was still very much a symbol of the South, the Confederacy, and in many eyes, slavery for most of the war.
Gee, you guys are a tough crowd. Not only have I been chastized, but also bent over and basted. I only meant to make the point that slavery was not an institution exclusive to the South. Please allow me to tuck my tail over whats left of my rectum and slink away with some small measure of dignity.
That being said, I’m going to do something I usually avoid- catagorize my friends, they include white, black, male, female, a few gays of both persuasins(sic), and a couple of asians, all of whom I find to be a constant source of enlightenment and entertainment, as well as just plain good company. I abhore slavery, by the North or South, I think a world of one color would be a boring f**king place to live.
Nontheless, brainwashed or not, I still feel that the war was not totally fought over slavery. The confederate army did not consist exclusivly of slave owners nor did the overwhelming majority even favor slavery. Most of these “good 'ol boys” were just poor kids caught up in something beyond their control as were troops of the union. War is hell and I’m pretty sure that given a choice, most of the soldiers on both sides would rather have been home with their families. (Please don’t make me throw away my flag collection, it does include union flags too.)
Let me see if I get it. There was a Confederate Flag(1st) that had nothing to do with the Battle Flag. The Battle Flag is the familiar “Confederate Flag” refered to in the thread title. This flag was later incorporated into a new Confederate Flag(2nd) in a corner with the rest white. Then near the end of the war a new Confederate Flag(3rd) was adopted. (I don’t get why a 3rd flag was needed. I mean why bother, you could more easily surrender with the 2nd. )
You are unsure how the Battle Flag became popular.(Might it have been Joe Johnston’s Flag?) But the Battle Flag was used by the military throughout the War of Southern Regression.
Does this sound correct?
And does anyone know about my 2nd statement: The popularity of this flag did not begin until the Civil Rights Movement did.
Is this correct?
I would think this knowledge might add some weight to the “heritage” or " hate" side of the controversy.
Peace
)