Confused and chastened by Tubadiva

The BBQ Pit
141

Let me get this straight. This is a message board based on a weekly newspaper column that discusses sperm trees, the causes for the color of excrement, the amount of calories in the average male ejaculate, and other various and sundry topics. And the posters on this board are being asked to “raise the tone” of the board by not posting about things like sperm counts?

Equine excrement. (Is that highbrow enough?)

TubaDiva, you do a wonderful job here. I could not do it myself. But if you’re now making decisions based not on the board, but on how potential employers might view the board, then you need to quit. Seriously. Tell prospective employers your moral standards or whatever didn’t allow you to continue in the job. But the instant you start making decisions based on someone else’s criteria, rather than the board’s, you’re prostituting yourself.

142

[b}Ultress**, the thing is that in a lot of cases, people who post material about sex don’t lose my respect. Not to turn this into another “But sex is a part of liiiiiiife!” posts, but, well, it IS. And not only that, the sexual content is really important to me here on this board. I’m not sure to what extent you’ve taken advantage of it, so you may not know how liberating it is to be able to talk openly about it in both serious and silly context.

Some large portion of the appeal of the Doperboards would be lost to me if we had to censor ourselves in the way that Tuba is suggesting. I mean, forget Ewes Sluts - a healthy portion of Ask the Gay Guy! wouldn’t have made the ‘think of the children’ cut you’re proposing.

Hell, half of Cecil’s columns wouldn’t have made Tuba’s cut either. Does Tuba seriously think that an employer who could be disgusted by the type of speech she’s trying to do away with would be any less disgusted by a semiserious column on the calorie content of cum?

I think that the board would lose a lot of its cachet if we were not allowed to post in a sexually explicit way. Even the silly posts Fight Ignorance in that they reduce the capacity of sex (A Part Of Life!, after all) to shock and offend. I’m watching this matter evolve with surprise and puzzlement and no small amount of sadness.

P.S. Tuba, Iteki has a good idea and you should listen to him/her.

P.P.S. Furthermore, I really do feel you should apologize. Your response to Scylla made no sense. He should use some common sense? Common sense is assuming that a post tamer than several that have made it into effing Threadspotting is allowable. He’s not a mindreader, and moderator or not, you had no business snapping at him like that, when in fact the rules are still under discussion (dixit Arnold) and in any case certainly haven’t been officially proclaimed yet.

143

I rarely post when there’s a pile-on party, but this time I think I will. I can appreciate that TubaDiva is compelled to act upon complaints, and I understand the desire to “raise the tone” of the boards. If many people found the thread offensive enough to complain about it, well, OK, they’re certainly entitled to complain, and Tuba has a responsibility to respond to that. What upset me was the way in which the thread was closed - taking a potshot at Scylla was uncalled for. I also think it’s wrong to expect any of us to censor ourselves so that TubaDiva doesn’t look bad on a resume. (Yes, I understand that’s not the main point, but since Tuba brought it up it should be addressed.) If I were a prospective employer and was searching the SDMB for examples of TubaDiva’s management skills, and I came across that, my first thought would be, “Hmm. PMS?”

When I read the Pit and see threads that are nothing more than vitriol-filled personal attacks on posters, laced with profanity and insults, I really have to wonder about the priorities of the mods. The attack threads in the Pit disturb me, personally, and in all honesty, I lose respect instantly for posters who start those threads…not that my opinion does (or should) count with those posters. I also object to scatology, religious content, and TMI descriptions in posts everywhere on this forum, but again, that’s a matter of personal opinion. I suppose I could hit the “complain” button and drive the mods insane every time I see one, but I choose to simply self-edit what I read and post.

Scylla’s thread was, in my opinion, FAR less offensive than many others that have not been closed. In addition to being not-very-offensive, it was well-written, self-deprecating and damned funny. If I were a magazine editor, it’s the kind of piece I would love to have submitted for publication.

144

A lot of us feel that way about a lot of comments. And who cares?

145

TubaDiva wrote:

Ok, I guess I can understand this. But if running the board is partly representative of your work habits, why take such a rude potshot at someone before closing their thread? Shouldn’t an employer judge you on that too?

146

Because, Lib, 56,000 wrongs DON’T MAKE A RIGHT. One of the first things I learned in my life as a Christian is LIVE AS AN EXAMPLE.

Insulting someone because they insulted you just escalates the bullshit.

147

matt I agree with you. I don’t think I stated anywhere in my post that ‘sex’ was a bad topic. I’m also not talking about censorship in the regard that you watch each and every word you post for the rest of your life. But we’ve all seen posts where if the wording were just a tad different it would make the post a lot more acceptable.
No we don’t need to hide our children from life. But we also don’t need to vulgarly expose them to things that don’t necessarily need to be considered vulgar when given in the right context.
I enjoyed ‘gay guy threads’ and I’d let my son read them. Most topics can be discussed in an informative and humorous manner, when done in the right context.
dantheman, you know I can remember when raising children was considered a community ideal, I know that’s been lost along the way in our country, the ideal now is if you have a kid that’s your wagon to pull and stay the hell away from the rest of us. Well actually that ideal hasn’t been lost in all places. There are still some areas where kids are considered a blessing and joy and the people around them, whether family or not, help to guide those children through life. I’m fortunate to live in one of those areas. From your response to my first post, I take it that you aren’t and have no wish to be. That’s a shame. Kids are really more than just a pain in the butt, one day they’ll be looking down on you, sorta what they call ‘turning the tables’ as they grow up and you age.

148

This thread looks more and more like a mutiny. Tuba, I’m on your side. If it wasn’t for the slummier aspects of this board, I’d introduce it to a lot more people. As it is, I’m in the closet .

149

ultress, I never said that having kids was such a bad thing - but it’s not encumbant upon the rest of us to make sure the kids of others are safe and sound. Sorry, that’s definitely a parental responsibility, not mine.

Also, I don’t believe I mentioned whether I had kids at all, let alone whether I wanted some in the future. :slight_smile:

150

A. Cry me a river. It’s not like we’re exactly hurting for members.

B. It’s a shame that your high falootin’ ‘classy’ friends are so sheltered from us slumlords that they’d be unable to discern that a thread entitled “MY TESTICLES ARE GOING TO EXPLODE” would maybe not be to their tastes, or indeed would be sexual in nature.

I think that in an effort to disinfect the board of all questionable topics, we’re essentially saying that people are so stupid that they can’t make choices for themselves. There’s forty nine billion threads on here, they aren’t all gross.

J

151

The potential-employer thing is one of the more bizarre things I’ve seen in awhile.

It’s certainly conceivable that some potential employer (henceforth, PE) might land randomly in Scylla’s allegedly non-brain-governed thread, and be repulsed and disgusted at someone using articulate writing skills to be humorous about sperm counts and blue balls. I’m a little flummoxed at trying to understand how it would be that that same PE wouldn’t be equally or more offended by many of the Cecil columsn themselves.

Another PE might not care at all about people talking, seriously to jestingly, about sexual matters–but be horribly offended at threads about religious ones. Said PE might be a creationist, and be repulsed at a board so chock-full of “evolutionists.” Or the PE might be a literalist fundamentalist, and be mortally offended at just how many threads there are consisting of that particular formulation of religious belief being torn apart–and God help employment opportunities when that same PE stumbles across that kickass staff article series about “Who Wrote the Bible”.

And yet another PE might take a short look through the Pit, seeing the vitriol that fills much of it, the gratuitous profanity and crowd of appreciative onlookers cheering on clever new combinations of naughty words, and toss the resume into the reject pile based on that.

And another…you get the idea. I’m in full agreement with the several folks who’ve said that any PE with any familiarity whatsoever with discussion groups and message boards on the internet, will be hard-pressed to find any board as large and popular as the SDMB, that also has such a high level of articulate writers onboard. I daresay that that’s a higher “tone” than anything else could be–a “tone” that endures whether the huge membership is talking about topics from abstruse formal philosophy to “vulgar” things.

This was a molehill that never needed to be watered, basically.

152

This is all just bizarre. I still don’t see what the problem was with Scylla’s post, except that it was more graphic than others, but still far less graphic than others. But, how is the quantity of “vulgarity” measured objectively? The whole thing just seemed like a random blow.

TubaDiva, I’ve chatted with you before, and even had an amusing email exchange a couple of years ago when you mistook one of my more naive sexual threads. Do you remember that? I was asking why semen was leaving red marks on my skin (I think this may have been back on the AOL boards). You said, among other things, that I “sounded very young” and that you “wished teenagers would wait for sex.” I emailed you letting you know I was 25. A very embarrassed 25, at that point, because of my inexperience and naivete about sexual subjects. But it was all cleared up smoothly enough.

My point in bringing up that exchange is that using the “would you want your family to know” and “think of the children” units of measure would have prevented me from getting quite the sexual education on this board. We’re here fighting ignorance, all ignorance, sexual or otherwise. I came here because the anonymity makes me feel safe to share, and inquire, about subjects that would turn my parents’ grey hair white. Was Scylla’s post educational? No, not entirely–but hey, I did learn something. And I laughed. He wasn’t copping the Mike Masterson/Kay Kay sexually obsessed style–he was just sharing an amusing situation, a real situation, that just happened to be sexual. Hell, I shared (during the WOOMC) about getting an xray of my kidneys and bladder and all the laxatives I had to endure beforehand…as well as the cystiscope I had to endure later. TMI for many of my friends, but here, I found sympathizers who’d been there before, including an administrator.

It is very peculiar that you’re using the “I’m looking for a job, the SDMB is a reference, I don’t want them to think I let people go nuts blah blah blah” line of reasoning as an excuse. You are a hard-working, underappreciated, dedicated individual, and I wish you much success in your job hunt…BUT that should have no bearing on your administration style here. It creates a unfair bias.

And I will echo what others have said–How is what Scylla said so different from the dozens of Straight Dope columns that just happened to be sexual in nature? Couldn’t your employer just as easily have accessed the “How many calories are in semen?” column?

I understand complaints were registered, but my first reaction in reading about them was “Were they valid complaints?” And if so, did you notify of Scylla of them, or just close the thread?

This all just seems unnecessary, random, and personal. I honestly can’t see other moderators closing that thread, and though I understand their silence, I would be interested to hear what they, and other administrators, have to say.

This just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

153

Meanwhile “The Nose During Cunnilingus” thread as well as “What is Bad Sex” with Mermaid’s super graphic description and subsequent sexual flirting remain open for business!

Fascinating.

154

de-lurk

You know, it seems like we’re reminded ** an awful lot ** that the admins, mods do this for free. On their own time no less. Without compensation. No paycheck. Zip-O in the money department. Elevator will not be stopping on the Handing out Paychecks floor. Or the Company Insurance floor. No raises because there’s nothing to begin with…

We get it. And we appreciate it. Truly. More than you can know.

But Tuba, your personal job search shouldn’t have anything to do with the administration of this board (unless, of course, you’re locked up somewhere being forced to do this or raw eat donkey ears w/rancid ketchup and circus peanuts). Regardless of the shameful fact that you are not compensated for your efforts here, the fact is, you choose to do this. If it’s infringing on your life, or becoming an embarrassment, then don’t do it.

155

Chalk me up for the “I don’t get the reasoning behind Tuba’s explanation”

A short quick apology saying she snapped would have sufficed had that been the case…

A new thread re “threads we will tolerate” and “threads we will lock” would have been ok…had that been the case.

This personal stuff + raising the moral tone of this board scares me. If we can’t joke about such topics as Scylla’s (that actually had a factual interesting basis) or discuss labia (And I think a frank discussion of that would be GOOD as women can sometimes think that they alone are different when it comes to their sex organs) then crap, I’m not so sure this is a fun place any more.

For instance, if you met me in real life, I’m pretty darned conservative, and I would never discuss my bisexuality or my sexuality AT ALL. Here, I get to do so with people that are my peers and get valuable input without having to be too embarassed to do so… I would become a more repressed person without this outlet to discuss the “touchy” subjects. I cannot count the number of times I’ve read something in a sex thread and thought, my GOD, I’m NOT THE ONLY ONE.

Look, I know the mods/admins don’t get paid, but this place’s worth is actually INCREASED by the fact we can have reasonably intelligent discussions about some off-color topics.

But, re the labia thread, I’m rather dissapointed with the shocked smiley replies as it could have been a good topic had some folks not decided to weigh in with their very valuable smiley responses. (note sarcaasm)

156

The first rule is: the message board is The Reader’s. They can do what the hell they want.

The corrolary to that is we need to know what they want so we don’t screw up.

Yes, Cecil has done some sex columns and so on. But none of Cecil’s columns are MPSIMS to being with, so I think that metaphor or analogy or whatever you conceive the comparison as is a non-starter.

Secondly, ultress, I noticed you referenced this explicitly though I don’t mean to single you out if others have said it, I don’t post with anything in mind but posting. I do not monitor your children or Tuba’s boss, nor do I monitor their reading habits. It is up to them or their guardians to do what they can in that capacity.

If The Reader wants us to monitor our own posts so no one has to monitor what they read here, then I think we are passed the “Don’t Be a Jerk” rule. We now have “Don’t Be a Jerk, and also Don’t Say Things We Will Find Offensive, Inappropriate, or Devoid of Content.” Which is a standard we can’t live up to.

Now, apparently, that is also understood by mods and admins. As Tuba noted, no one is especially vigilent on this. But if a trend starts to ballon, perhaps it is time to clamp down on it. Resend the message, as ambiguous as it is, creating a tendancy to remain self-monitoring and on par with more quality than crap.

And yes, the mods and admins decide what is crap. Hell, they decide who are jerks, too. I would think this is obvious.

All that said, being the anal philosophic type I wish the standards were more clear. I imagine that is an impossible request.

All that said, I still don’t think the thread should have been closed. It wasn’t a literary triumph in CS, it wasn’t a GQ, there was nothing to debate, it was, by all rights, something mundane and pointless (contextually speaking, of course if anyone feels compelled to say anything then it isn’t very mundane or pointless to them) that Scylla wanted to share. But thats MHO, and I am not a mod nor an admin.

A clear title like Scylla’s should allow for the self-moderating aspect that we expect most of the world’s population to have. It was slightly offensive, possibly, but it also served as a clear warning to anyone who would find the title offensive: don’t read the thread!

What else are we to do? Revert to bland titles? Impliment a voluntary rating system so people can avoid the R-rated threads if they want to? Because for a general interest message board, I honestly don’t think it is even possible to create an objective standard. Threads will get closed for what seem to be (and probably are) arbitrary reasons, others will stay open when it seems they should be shut, and so on right up to where we are now.

157

I’m wondering with some frustration if the other moderators/administrators are reading this thread, and if so, if all they’re going to do is read it. Some sort of action–whether a more exlicitly worded thread explaining the new rules, or one saying that perhaps TD uncharacteristically stepped over the line–is really needed here.

This whole situation is bothering me enough to want to file a complaint against our beloved TubaDiva, which I am quite hesitant to do. But I am really wanting to hear what the ultimate Higher Ups have to say about this–are they condoning her behavior? Chastising it? Or just ignoring it?

As BottledBlondJeanie said, “this place’s worth is actually INCREASED by the fact we can have reasonably intelligent discussions about some off-color topics.” I would like the assurance that such discussions will be permitted to continue.

158

Ultress
No, No, No, No, No!

Think of the children, indeed. Some younger posters make outstanding contributions and I’d be very sorry to lose them. However, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that the content of this board should be limitted to that which is appropriate for a 16 year old, even an enlightened 16 year old. You’re asking me to spend the rest of my life eating nothing but cold jello salad because some people don’t like the heat in the kitchen.

If it comes to it, we be far better off requiring anyone reading the board to certify that they are at least 18. While we’re at it, let’s require anyone registering to post to pass a multiple choice test in simple logic. :wink:

I agree this is starting to look like a mutiny. I’d like to hear what some of the other mods and admins think about this. Lynn? Arnold? John? MEB? Coldfire? Anyone? What do all of you think about this issue?

159

Scylla,

We were not amused by your thread. It is incredibly naive of you to assume you can consistently besmirch our organization with impunity. You leave us no choice but to put you on double secret probation!

eunoia
71st Level Tetrahedron
International Diamond Cutters Guild

160

I agree. I saw those, and I was really puzzled.

At this point, I’m not so much angry at Tuba-actually, I’m not angry at all-as I am confused, concerned and a bit hurt. It’s almost as if she’s ashamed of the SDMB.

Besides, sex isn’t the only graphic subject we’ve discussed. We’ve had topics on extremely tramatic events, violence. We’ve told off white supremecists, conspiracy theorists, nutbars. We’ve made tasteless jokes in response to the September 11 tragedy (the Onion titles, for example).

I mean, forget Scylla’s thread-what about Cecil’s columns on Ed Gein, the Weird Earls linking to Vulva Puppets and Baby Jesus Buttplugs.

I think I’m not the only one who is actually WORRIED that there’s something more going on. I’m not being nasty, or criticizing the mods so much as I’m saying-“Hey, guys? Is there something going on that you’re not telling us? That maybe we could offer some support for?”

:frowning: