I was going to drop the matter, as I thought this thread had had its time and was sinking, but now that it’s back: I’m honestly surprised at the impact my comment about both sides having made up their minds a little too strongly about WMDs before the invasion. I stand by that comment, and if you’d asked me my opinion when I was in favour of the war, I’d have given it to you the same. That hasn’t changed any. It was intended to be reasonably bipartisan, and if I’d known the reaction, I’d have saved it for another thread.
FTR, I hadn’t made a firm decision about whether or not WMD would be found at the time of the invasion…my gut feeling was that they were non-existent, but I was prepared to be deemed wrong with the advent of evidence.
I was dead-set against the invasion for other reasons, which have since proved to be well-founded.
That said, I do NOT think we can now just withdraw from Iraq.
Are you in favour of the same number of foreign troops as there are today, remaining in there for whatever measure of foreseeable future, or a scheduled withdrawal, reducing the numbers over time, kambuckta?
I didn’t know there weren’t any.
I was dead cert they were lying about knowing there were.
Grasp that and you have the kernel of the argument.
I have NO FREAKING IDEA what the best course of action should be to minimise harm and maximise the potential benefit for the Iraqi people now. I guess that is why I never got a job as a military strategist!! 
Bush and the Coalition are between a rock and a hard place. If they stay, there will be chaos and turmoil and casualties: if they leave, however gradually, there will be chaos and turmoil and casualties…and they will be responsible for both eventualities.
Apart from getting everybody out and nuking the region… 
Do not give them any ideas!
I don’t see there being any potential benefit to the Iraqi people at the moment, no matter what the scenario. But I’m not in favour of the troops staying there. The Brits have a reduction plan. The US and Aussies should have the same.
Bush, and those who supported him, are responsible anyway. Not that such will ever matter to them.
How can you say, in one breath, that regardless of the scenario there is no potential benefit to Iraq, then in the other recommend the withdrawal of troops?
At least I have the honesty to say that I do not know.
:rolleyes:
Not a matter of “honesty”, as you call it. It’s a matter of not making the situation worse. Sadly, that’s already happened, and will continue to happen.
You want this as an everlasting war? Fine. I don’t. That’s honesty.
What?
:dubious:
I agree with scheduled troop reduction, you apparently don’t. Because you say you “don’t know”, so you seem to favour status quo.
Ah, well, that’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. Personally, I’d rather see the war ended. It won’t with the situation as it is. That’s my opinion.
What? How in the buggery did you translate “don’t know” into tacit approval for the current state of Iraqi affairs?
You off your meds again Icey?
Which is status quo. No withdrawal from Iraq, unless the US and Australian governments get serious about planned troop reduction.
Even given what you’ve said in the above quote, you have also said:
So, you don’t want to peg yourself down to a real opinion either way – just that you think there should not be withdrawal from Iraq now. Maybe later? No, you’re not sure about that …
Pointless discussing this with you, because you’re still hedging your bets, by the sounds of things. At least, thank you – you explained a bit more as to where you stand. I think. :dubious:
Question for TheLoadedDog: Since you say you’re still a conservative, I’d like to know what you have learned from the Iraq War. If it’s just “If it ever becomes 2001 again, and I’m asked to support a search for WMDs and a pledge to go for a quick and total war on Iraq that will result in a Jeffersonian democracy ASAP” then what use is your disappointment?
Mind you, to my ever-lasting shame, I supported the war at first. Bush fooled me once, so shame on him, but now he (and his Pubbie cronies) have created an enemy that will never trust a thing they say ever again on GP. At this point I would rather see him hanged than Osama Bin laden, and would cast a ballot for Osama before I’ll cast one for a Republican.
Dear, my opinion is that we should not have invaded Iraq in the first place, and that we should get the fuck outta there ASAP. That’s my** opinion.**
However, I am not so naive as to realise that sudden withdrawal might well create more problems than it solves, thus I added the caveat that I DO NOT KNOW what might be the best course of action for the future stability of Iraq. My opinion can go get fucked really, it has no bearing on the reality on what is actually happening.
Do you understand where I stand now?? :rolleyes:
To my personal shame, I don’t know how to answer that question. Maybe I’ve just learned to notch my cynicism with all politicians up a couple of clicks, but that’s probably not the satisfactory answer you’re looking for.
I wouldn’t go that far by a long shot, but I certainly like to see him booted out of office onto his arse, and although I’ve never felt the need to join a political party, were I an American citizen right now, I’d be running not walking to my nearest Pubbie office to sign up so I could help rebuild their moderate faction.
Given what you said in your second paragraph that you too were initially in favour of the war, may I turn the question you asked of me in your first back on you, or is it answered to your satisfaction in your second? Not being snarky in asking that - it’s the sort of concise info I was looking for when starting this thread.
Actually, on reflection, I probably was taken in by the Jeffersonian democracy bit to a certain degree. I knew it wouldn’t be as easy as they were saying (even we conservatives had Vietnam floating about our heads), but I probably thought it would be easier than it was. I guess I’d say - given a time machine - go to Iraq if you can still believe the outcome will be on balance better than the status quo - but now factoring in the reality of a long period of instability and bloodshed. Only if it STILL results in less bloodshed over all should you go.
Actually, I think I’d be hellishly confused and wouldn’t have the comfort of certainty offered to me by either side.
No, that’s pretty much it: appeals to my patriotism are all used up. From this point forward, I will assume I’m being blatently lied to whenever a Republican tells me I must support something because my country requires my support. My first and last thoughts on such appeals will be:" You lying self-serving murderous scumbag…" and then I will proceed to get abusive.
You think you’ve got it bad? Try being an Imperialist- I don’t think there’s many of us on the boards, put it that way.
I will admit to thinking that the British Empire, in its bumbling, innocent, Victorian self-assured naive way actually did much good. Not that I think subject countries shouldn’t have done everything in their power to break free, and not that I think all was roses, but I am nostalgic for certain aspects of Empire (however ill-conceived).