[QUOTE=elucidator]
But you fudge the all-important factor of doubt. (Though you would be hard pressed to find anyone, of any political stripe, who openly stated that they were sure there were no WMD. You have no such examples, please stop pretending that you do.)
Doubt is the substantial point, there was doubt. The Bushiviks went into frothing fits every time such doubt was raised (as witness the numerous insinuations about the inspectors, and the foul and disgraceful campaign against Scott Ritter, as iron-ass a Marine lifer as was ever born…)
So, by effect, they placed themselves as contending that there was no such doubt, by denying it at every opportunity. As well they might, the case for aggressive war was that it was pre-emptive war, based on a grave, gathering, and imminent threat. Otherwise, it is nothing more than simple aggression. A crime on an international scale, according to the principles we purport to hold dear.
[/QUOTE]
In a way I hope you’re right. I’d much rather admit to being wrong on this than to know that there were people who were cocksure about it. But there were. Maybe not you, maybe not even Hentor, but it’s not really very long ago, and my memory is still fresh - fresh with the images of leftists protesting in the streets, fresh with the memory of conservative blogs and websites of the time. There were vast numbers of people who believed they knew.
Anyway, I think this is tangential to this thread. We might have to agree to disagree on this. It looks like there were no WMDs. My hunch was wrong. I can cop that.
[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog]
In a way I hope you’re right. I’d much rather admit to being wrong on this than to know that there were people who were cocksure about it. But there were. Maybe not you, maybe not even Hentor, but it’s not really very long ago, and my memory is still fresh - fresh with the images of leftists protesting in the streets, fresh with the memory of conservative blogs and websites of the time. There were vast numbers of people who believed they knew.
Anyway, I think this is tangential to this thread. We might have to agree to disagree on this. It looks like there were no WMDs. My hunch was wrong. I can cop that.
[/QUOTE]
I just noticed this, and I know that it doesn’t seem important to you at this point, so I apologize for going on about it, but you seem to equate having protested with being sure there were no WMD. I was not sure there were no WMD, but I was dead-set against the war. Because people were protesting in the streets does not mean that they were sure there were no WMD.
I’m kind of a conservative (definitely not a “non-US” conservative either, I’m talking leaning toward [but not that close to] libertarianism, certainly nowhere near Socialism). I think war is good in many cases, I think Saddam should have been overthrown, but I didn’t agree with the war mostly because it appeared to be built on false pretenses and lies. If you want to overthrow mad dictators, it should be done over here first, there are plenty of them in Central and South America.
I voted for Bush, the first time. I voted for the independent party the second time, mostly because I didn’t like either choice, wanted to vote, and felt it was safe to vote for the guy that didn’t stand a chance.
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
I just noticed this, and I know that it doesn’t seem important to you at this point, so I apologize for going on about it, but you seem to equate having protested with being sure there were no WMD. I was not sure there were no WMD, but I was dead-set against the war. Because people were protesting in the streets does not mean that they were sure there were no WMD.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that’s cool. Many thinking people were no doubt unsure, but there are an awful lot of doofuses out there.
One of the main thoughts that struck me when Iraq was finally invaded was that one side or other was going to be terribly embarrassed, and wondering how good their spin doctors were.
I fully accept that many people protested without being 100% sure. But please accept that others did (if it wasn’t certainty, it might have been bravado).
[QUOTE=wring]
my daddy was somewhat to the right of the john birchers, believed in the death penalty for repeat offenders, and he hated Bush.
[/QUOTE]
Well, if all of you Republicans hate the guy so much, how the fuck did he get elected!? I sure as hell didn’t vote for him. Anybody? Anybody here vote for Bush?
::crowd quietly stares at the ground, scuffing the dirt with their worn boot toes ::
[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
Well, if all of you Republicans hate the guy so much, how the fuck did he get elected!?
[/QUOTE]
Two reasons: Karl Rove and John Kerry.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Two reasons: Karl Rove and John Kerry.
[/QUOTE]
Cheap easy answer, but unfortunately totally correct. Between “the ends justify the means, win at any cost” manipulations of the former, and the lackluster bumbling of the latter, the end result was a forgone conclusion.