Conservatives plan major military expansion in Canada. Thoughts?

Great Debates
61

Totally true. But they still got to do a bunch of really cool shit. :slight_smile: (My dad was Airborne until about '71 when he moved over to PPCLI, or something).

Regarding increasing military funding, I’m all for it. The boats are good, the equipment it good. I hope that their is some thought given to increasing pay scales for soldiers. When my family lived on the base in Kingston there were enlisted families that had to use the food bank - I think that’s appalling. If these people are going to be defending the country, as well as helping other countries, make sure they’re making a living wage. (Now, I haven’t looked at pay scales recently, and it’s possible that this has improved but I know in the early '90’s a day’s wage for a Private was $48/day. You just can’t support a family on that.)

62

“is” or “there” even. :rolleyes:

63

they don’t like sensual massages?

64

oops-just felt the whoosh as it went past. What exactly docanadians call their health service?

65

Canadian soldiers are among the highest paid soldiers in the world; their pay is kept exactly in line with federal civil service jobs of equivalent experience and qualifications.

A Private-1, the lowest pay grade the Forces has, makes about $30,000 a year, plus considerable benefits; after a few years you’re at $40,000. That’s damned good money for a job that requires nothing more than high school and no other qualifications at all. It’s simply not realistic to expect the Forces to pay people much more than they already are.

I’m from Kingston, was in the Forces there, and remember the soldiers-at-food-banks incident. What I was told by those in the know is that the soldiers in question were fools who were stupid with their money. The Forces can’t stop you from blowing all your cash on a pimped-up ride and forgetting to buy food for your kids.

$48 a day would be $17,520 a year; private in the early 90’s were making more than that. Maybe in the Reserves, privates made that little. Not in the regular force in the 1990s, though.

It would be nice to pay soldiers more, but that’s not really an issue that needs fixing right now.

66

this works out to $20,00 per year for a tradesman. in the real world this person would start at $25,000. mind you he would get free room and board in the north atlantic but going out on friday night wouldn’t be the same. if this person started with an oil company in the arctic in similar isolation he’d make a pile of dough and be working 12 - 16 hours per day 7 days per week in camp with free room and board.

http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/jobresult_en.asp?qText=@All%20(electrician)%20and%20(@Meta_Province%20(06))%20and%20@Meta_Student%20NO%20and%20@Meta_InternetFlag%20YES&ProvId=06&ProvIdList=06&CommGrouping=&Comm=&OrderBy=Date&Keyword=Electrician&PageNum=2&Student=false&PSCSearch=

Job Advertisement
Advertisement number: 1825661
Title: Marine electrician (No experience necessary (332-00126)) (NOC: 7242)
Terms of Employment: Permanent, Full Time
Salary: $2,421.00 Monthly for 40 hours per week, Other Benefits
Anticipated Start Date: As soon as possible
Location: Nationally, Ontario (4 vacancies )
Skill Requirements:

Education: Some high school
Credentials (certificates, licences, memberships, courses, etc.): Not required
Experience: Will train
Languages: Speak English, Read English, Write English
Other Information: Uniformed Canadian Forces position. Employment NOT in local area and will vary National/International. 4 wks paid vacation/yr. Full med/dent benefits. Basic military training provided. Approx $5000.00 a year raise for first 3 years.Salary after 4 yrs $48,200/yr. Must be a Canadian Citizen age 17-51.
Employer: Your nearest Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre
Please apply for this job only in the manner specified by the employer. Failure to do so may result in your application not being properly considered for the position.
How to Apply:

By Phone between 8:30 and 16:00:

(800) 856-8488
Business Profile: Canadian Forces
Web Site: http://www.jointheforces.com
Advertised until: 2006/03/19

This job advertisement has been provided by an external employer. Service Canada is not responsible for the accuracy, authenticity or reliability of the content.

67
  1. The ad isn’t for a tradesman, but for an unskilled labourer who will eventually become a tradesman after receiving a bunch of free training.
  2. $2,421 x 12 = $29,052, which is rather more than $20k and a damned good salary for unskilled labour.
68

There are also a lot of benefits that military personnel get - depending on where you are everything from cheap barracks housing to full dental and every other kind of medical benefit you could want, plus extra pay for hazardous duty, postings to special places, etc,

A friend of ours was a corporal in the Canadian Forces. He’d been in for maybe 10 years at the time, and he lived in a house a few doors down from us. I was a software developer, and my wife a nurse. Both of us made above-average wages, and our house was about all we could afford. My buddy in the forces was doing all right. His wife worked part time as a day-care worker. I never heard him complain about the pay, and in fact he was quite emphatic that he liked the benefits and the life.

The problems the Canadian Forces have does not include low pay for the soldiers. It has more to do with sending them into the field poorly equipped, our last few governments making commitments the forces can’t meet without stressing their soldiers and infrastructure, and the government refusing to pay for necessary maintenance and replacement of obsolete equipment.

69

I have to confess to some confusion, no doubt informed by a somewhat insular and uneducated viewpoint, as to the likelihood that canada would find itself called upoh to project power in the traditional sense. Who did you have in mind to oppress? (in what I take to the the happpy absence of any threat from abroad, other than the crazies in New Hampshire…)

70

All I can say is, you Yanks better not step out of line.

Seriously… Canada isn’t going to project power in the sense of threatening nations around the world and parking aircraft carriers in trouble spots to send a message. What Canada does is the kind of thing we’re doing now - running the show in Afghanistan. Canada just took over the multinational forces in Afghanistan. We have 2200 soldiers there. In the past we have led peacekeeping missions in Cyprus, Bosnia, and elsewhere. Plus, we back up our allies and provide the capabilities we’ve promised NATO. During the Cold War, for example, one of Canada’s major roles was anti-submarine patrol. We were very good at it. One of our current NATO roles is to provide AWACS personnel and funding. Canada actually flew air cover over the U.S. after Sept. 11, for example.

Canada is also a major training center for NATO, and because we have so much uninhabited land mass, we do a lot of testing and proving of equipment here. The U.S. used Canadian flight corridors for testing the cruise missile.

Canada is also a full partner in NORAD, and Canadian and American soldiers serve together in several installations. In addition, Canada is responsible for operating the North Warning System, an extensive series of radars in the north which replaced the old Cold War DEW line.

And of course, Canada’s military is supposed to maintain readiness for other conflicts that might erupt and threaten our allies and treaty partners. Canada sent half a million soldiers into WWI. We lost 45,000 soldiers in WWII, which is was almost twice as many soldiers per-capita as the U.S. lost. We sent 27,000 soldiers into the Korean war.

It may look like there are no major threats to our allies today, but we lose sight of the fact that world situations can change dramatically. Who knows where the threats will come from 10 or 20 years from now? in 1990, it looked like the cold war was over, Fukuyama was writing about ‘The end of History’, and the question on everyone’s mind was just how much of the world’s military should be dismantled now that we weren’t gonna study war no more. Fifteen years later, the U.S. has fought two wars in Iraq, one in Afghanistan, and there are major threats on the horizon from North Korea and Iran, and serious instability in Pakistan and other places.

And it takes time to build up a military. You can’t just throw some money around and crank out a fighting force when the need arises. So you have to maintain it even in times of peace.

71

And it takes time to build up a military. You can’t just throw some money around and crank out a fighting force when the need arises. So you have to maintain it even in times of peace.

fair enough–who knows when the american electorate will go completely bonkers again and follow another deluded president on an insane adventure…

72

Canada needs a beefed up military to launch strikes against the Baldwin and Arquette families in retaliation for the U.S. planned execution of farting comics Terrence and Philip.

73

Everytime troops are sent abroad it is so they can oppress someone? Really?

What does this have to do with anything regarding an increase in military spending in Canada?

74

I believe the rubric under which we were operating was the “projection of power”. Strictly speaking, post 1945, the said projection is a legitimate perquisite only of the security council, not indiviual states.

75

Is that so? Well, I’ll use Stalin’s Question: Just how many divisions does the U.N. Security Council have?

Answer below:

0

The Security Council, to accomplish anything, must enlist the help of individual states. Like, you know, Canada.

76

quite true. but I believe that those state who find themselves embarassed by a lack of military resources can substitute cash.

77

Then you won’t have the cash or a military.
[Homer searches under the couch for a peanut]
Homer: Hmm…ow, pointy! Eww, slimy. Oh, moving! Ah-ha! Oh, twenty dollars…I wanted a peanut!
Homer’s brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how.
Homer’s brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services.

78

The US has justified many of its internationa military operations as falling under this heading, from the Korean war, which did have the full sanction of the UN Security Council thanks to a boycott from the USSR, to the first Gulf War. A country fighting in self-defense can request military aid without UN Security Council approval.

79

“self-defense” is the critical point. The “projection of power” is generally to be found outside of that category of action.

Historically, if you will examine the internal debates that nations engage in when funding what was, over most of the past, the principal means for power projection (naval strength), the purposes of that projection have more often been to coerce compliance with national goals from foreign and nominally independent populations, not to defend the “homeland”

80

How are you defining ‘projection of power’? If you mean parking an extra aircraft carrier in the Gulf to send a message, then the U.S. has never asked for U.N. permission to do that.

There are lots of ways to project power that don’t involve topping governments. Flying air cover for a friendly nation, for example. Putting an aircraft carrier in a position to defend an asset or an ally. Flying air patrols in international airspace bordering a nation to be able to alert allies if there is belligerant activity.