That’s just what they want you to think. Wake up people!
But was it really hidden? Based on the wikipedia you linked to it sounds like it was covered up until the D-Day landings and then got lost in the shuffle with all of the other engagements and casualties of the war.
Official histories contain little information about the tragedy. Some commentators have called it a cover-up, but the initial critical secrecy about Tiger may have merely resulted in longer-term quietude. In his book The Forgotten Dead: Why 946 American Servicemen Died Off The Coast Of Devon In 1944 – And The Man Who Discovered Their True Story, published in 1988, Ken Small declares that the event “was never covered up; it was ‘conveniently forgotten’”
There might have been thousands of people in on the secret that we could crack Enigma codes… but those thousands were all employees of government espionage agencies, who would never have been hired (and in on the secret) unless their employers were convinced that they could keep a secret, and that they understood the importance of doing so. By contrast, the people who would have to be in on it for a 9-11 conspiracy include a large and more-or-less randomly-chosen fraction of the entire population of New York City, most of whom weren’t in the professional secret-keeping business.
Obligatory Adam Ruins Everything about the moon landing conspiracy theory.
https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/wwsnfo/adam_ruins_everything_did_probably_the_best/
For something that those involved with had no problems with it becoming openly known what was going on, it’s rather odd that it was the threat of it being publicly exposed in the media that shut it down, no?
Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Termination
Buxtun finally went to the press in the early 1970s. The story broke first in the Washington Star on July 25, 1972, reported by Jean Heller of the Associated Press.[10] It became front-page news in the New York Times the following day. Senator Edward Kennedy called Congressional hearings, at which Buxtun and HEW officials testified. As a result of public outcry, the CDC and PHS appointed an ad hoc advisory panel to review the study.[8] The panel found that the men agreed to certain terms of the experiment, such as examination and treatment. However, they were not informed of the study’s actual purpose.[5] The panel then determined that the study was medically unjustified and ordered its termination.
The number of victims Unit 731 exceeds by far the thousands figure, just a quick and far from exhaustive sampling:
At least 12 large-scale bioweapon field trials were carried out, and at least 11 Chinese cities attacked with biological agents. An attack on Changde in 1941 reportedly led to approximately 10,000 biological casualties and 1,700 deaths among ill-prepared Japanese troops, in most cases due to cholera.
During biological bomb experiments, researchers dressed in protective suits would examine the dying victims. Infected food supplies and clothing were dropped by airplane into areas of China not occupied by Japanese forces. In addition, poisoned food and candy were given to unsuspecting victims. Plague fleas, infected clothing, and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed at least 400,000 Chinese civilians.[40] Tularemia was also tested on Chinese civilians.
Thousands of men, women, children, and infants interned at prisoner of war camps were subjected to vivisection, often performed without anesthesia and usually lethal.[28][29] In a video interview, former Unit 731 member Okawa Fukumatsu admitted to having vivisected a pregnant woman.[30] Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Researchers performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body.
Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss. Limbs removed were sometimes reattached to the opposite side of victims’ bodies. Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and their esophagus reattached to the intestines. Parts of organs, such as the brain, lungs, and liver, were removed from others.[29] Imperial Japanese Army surgeon Ken Yuasa suggests that practising vivisection on human subjects was widespread even outside Unit 731,[32] estimating that at least 1,000 Japanese personnel were involved in the practice in mainland China.[33] Yuasa said that when he performed vivisections on captives, they were “all for practice rather than for research,” and that such practises were “routine” among Japanese doctors stationed in China during the war.
Bolding mine, and we’re only talking about the number of Japanese personnel involved in conducting vivisections of human being in mainland China.
In April 2018, the National Archives of Japan disclosed a nearly complete list of 3,607 members of Unit 731 to Katsuo Nishiyama, a professor at Shiga University of Medical Science. Nishiyama reportedly intended to publish the list online to encourage further study into the unit.
Again, bolding mine, and for a news article on the disclosure, and mind, these were only members of Unit 731, not the total numbers of people who were aware of its existence and activities:
As for who in the US knew about it, covered up Unit 731s existence, and paid the members of the unit stipends in exchange for their data which went into the hands of the US biological warfare program, the chain goes up to MacArthur, who authorized the coverup and granted immunity from prosecution for war crimes:
Among the individuals in Japan after its 1945 surrender was Lieutenant Colonel Murray Sanders, who arrived in Yokohama via the American ship Sturgess in September 1945. Sanders was a highly regarded microbiologist and a member of America’s military center for biological weapons. Sanders’ duty was to investigate Japanese biological warfare activity. At the time of his arrival in Japan, he had no knowledge of what Unit 731 was.[71] Until Sanders finally threatened the Japanese with bringing the Soviets into the picture, little information about biological warfare was being shared with the Americans. The Japanese wanted to avoid prosecution under the Soviet legal system, so, the morning after he made his threat, Sanders received a manuscript describing Japan’s involvement in biological warfare.[106] Sanders took this information to General Douglas MacArthur, who was the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers and responsible for rebuilding Japan during the Allied occupations. MacArthur struck a deal with Japanese informants:[107] he secretly granted immunity to the physicians of Unit 731, including their leader, in exchange for providing America solely, with their research on biological warfare and data from human experimentation.[6] American occupation authorities monitored the activities of former unit members, including reading and censoring their mail.[108] The Americans believed that the research data was valuable and did not want other nations, particularly the Soviet Union, to acquire data on biological weapons.[109]
The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal heard only one reference to Japanese experiments with “poisonous serums” on Chinese civilians. This took place in August 1946 and was instigated by David Sutton, assistant to the Chinese prosecutor. The Japanese defense counsel argued that the claim was vague and uncorroborated and it was dismissed by the tribunal president, Sir William Webb, for lack of evidence. The subject was not pursued further by Sutton, who was probably unaware of Unit 731’s activities. His reference to it at the trial is believed to have been accidental. Later in 1981, one of the last surviving members of the Tokyo Tribunal, Judge Röling, had expressed bitterness in not being made aware of the suppression of evidence of Unit 731 and wrote, “It is a bitter experience for me to be informed now that centrally ordered Japanese war criminality of the most disgusting kind was kept secret from the court by the U.S. government.”
When did I ever claim anything remotely to that effect?
Yes, it really was hidden. Those involved in Exercise Tiger were told not to talk about it, as were the British civilians whose shores dead bodies from the disaster washed up on. The problem was, they were never told that they were allowed to discuss it after the invasion and the war were already long since over, and they kept their silence about it until 44 years later. Whether it was a coverup or a bureaucratic fuckup that never ended the coverup is open to interpretation, but the fact that it was hidden really isn’t.
That such a thing occurred is hardly surprising, to quote Sun Tzu, all warfare is based on deception.
We’re looking at the same thing from different angles. The fact that a random selection of a rather large part of the population of New York City all agree on what happened, and that it was hijacked airliners rather than CGI effects, controlled demolitions, phantom missiles, space lasers, or whatever kind of nonsense conspiracy theorists come up with is extremely strong proof that what happened is what happened, as opposed to some elaborate conspiracy.
OK, let’s move our focus to a different era: Do you think a government, which after all could keep Exercise Tiger secret, could keep a crisis actor conspiracy secret?
In the United States, the term has been used by conspiracy theorists who claim that some mass shootings and other terror events are staged for the advancement of various political objectives.[11] Conspiracy theorists’ use of the term is thought to have originated in 2012, when a blog post by former professor and professional conspiracy theorist James Tracy suggested that the government could have hired an acting agency named Visionbox to help stage the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. Visionbox offered dramatic training “in criminal and victim behavior” to actors intended to help “bring intense realism to simulated mass casualty incidents in public places”.[12]
Consider the parents: Do you think the government could pay them enough to deal with the harassment they get from conspiracy theorists on the basis of crisis actor conspiracy theories:
The father of a 6-year-old boy killed in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting testified Tuesday that conspiracy theorist Alex Jones made his life a “living hell” by pushing claims that the murders were a hoax involving actors aimed at increasing gun control.
[snip]
Heslin said his home and car have been shot at, and his attorneys said Monday that the family had an “encounter” in Austin after the trial began in the city and have been in isolation under security.
How many of those encounters until you would just make it all stop by coming forwards?
You are asking two completely unrelated questions, and if I’m reading you right you are ascribing to me exactly what I’ve gone to great lengths to note that I am not doing. The same as with 9/11, the existence of the dead children from Sandy Hook, the witnesses to the tragedy that occurred there, the families of the victims, etc., etc., etc. are all overwhelmingly positive evidence that the shooting in fact occurred, just as the evidence of tens if not hundreds of thousands or millions of people who directly witnessed the attacks on 9/11 or were impacted by it are far more than sufficient positive proof that the attacks did in fact occur, and were done with hijacked airliners and not some conspiratorial gobbledygook. There is no need, and no point in trying to ‘prove’ that a large group of people are incapable of lying in concert in a conspiracy to invent such an occurrence.
Using it as a basis of ‘proof’ of the occurrence of an event is both a very weak proof to use when there is already an overwhelmingly positive proof of said events occurrences, and it relies upon the notion that governments are incapable of concealing nefarious activities from the public eye, or in the case of Sandy Hook case private citizens are incapable of doing so.
ETA: I am very wary of using this as a foil to demonstrate that private citizens can become convinced of the most heinous things having occurred when they in fact had not as again, there is overwhelming positive evidence that the Sandy Hook shooting did in fact occur. With that hopefully out of the way, there were over 12,000 unsubstantiated cases of Satanic Ritual Abuse having occurred during the ‘satanic panic’ when in fact it is very likely none of them ever occurred.
You’re the one arguing that governments can keep things secret in a thread about conspiracy theories as in 9/11. The argument there is that the government could keep Exercise Tiger a secret, therefore they could keep 9/11 or Sandy Hook a secret. My point is that keeping the big things secret, the major disasters, requires random people to be perfect actors even at gunpoint. Did you follow any of Alex Jones’ trials?
The Satanic Ritual Abuse references are off-point because the parents there actually believed the lies. The crisis actors conspiracy theory posits the parents as complicit.
You’ll have to pardon my French, but this is the pit. You are an utter moron lacking in any reading comprehension skills if you think that is in anyway remotely close to what I have stated or argued in this thread.
You’re arguing (quite well, I think) that saying that the government can’t keep secrets is the least effective way to disprove a conspiracy theory, because it has been shown that thousands of people have been able to keep a secret for quite a long time. Is that right?
And, you’re saying the way to attack truthers and crisis actors is to show that there is tons of evidence, from people not in any government and with no reason to fake anything, and physical evidence, etc., that 9/11 and Sandy Hook were real events.
Do I have that right? It’s a bit of a subtle argument for the Pit, I guess.
In any case, arguing with CTers is a losing proposition. I guess if it were someone close to me, I’d try to pull them out of the pit.
Regardless of who may be making this argument, it fails.
CTers aren’t just hung up on the idea that massive numbers of people in government are lying to them and concealing the Truth. They dismiss any contrary evidence, including that coming from highly trained and educated experts (except the relative handful of “experts” who agree with them) and media sources (unless it’s the likes of the Epoch Times and Natural News). Lately they’re infuriated at fact checkers, who’ve just gotta be shills for, well, something. The amorphous They will stop at nothing to invent, distort and deceive, because They are Evil.
Yes, patient education helps limit CTer influence by helping to convince the relatively sane majority. The ultimate goal and most effective remedy is to prevent the conspiratorial mindset from developing in the first place and hardening into permanent folly. And that requires education in critical thinking, beginning at an early age.
As I said:
I think its a case of We know the truth, we must save the world!
Maganut has texted me about the next vaccine which is meant to kill many, the normie sheepletards (with a pic of a sheep)need to hear the truth!
I think for at least some people it’s a really bad case of I Must Be Right.
Pretty near everybody likes feeling that they’re right. Some people also enjoy the feeling of becoming more right than they had been before – which requires being willing to acknowledge to themselves both that they were at least partially wrong before, and that they might not be perfectly right this time, either.
This necessity of accepting essential uncertainty disturbs quite a few people so much that they can’t stand it. They have to be certain, or, I think, they feel like they might drown in quicksand. Many people are able to restrict this need to some portions of their lives, and remain able to change their minds about other things based on evidence. With some people, it seems to take over.
So they got an idea in their heads about something, because it fit nicely with how they’re already thinking about something else. And having once espoused that idea – they Must Be Right, they Can’t Be Wrong. So any evidence that it’s wrong becomes, not evidence that they’re wrong, but evidence that the people saying that they’re wrong must be either stupid or lying.
So they stop paying attention to those people – they decide that the people trying to convince them with better evidence must be either stupid or lying or at best listening to people who are lying to them; so anything said by anyone arguing against the Thing can’t be trusted. They only pay attention to people who say they were right about the Thing. And when those people tell them some other Thing, that appears to be nonsense – if they admitted that the other Thing is nonsense, then they’d have to admit that the people they’re listening to, the only ones who will tell them that they’re right about the first Thing, are talking nonsense.
And sometimes, instead of at least saying ‘well they may be talking nonsense about X but they’re right about Y’ (which is a thing that can happen, and often does), they start thinking ‘well the apparent nonsense must be true, then; because these are the only people who will agree I’m right about Y, so they’re the only ones who can be trusted, so they Can’t Be Wrong.’
And then they Can’t Be Wrong about that thing either, no matter how absurd they would once have thought it – and they’re stuck going down the whirlpool.
You got caught in a bad argument and now you insult the person who notices. Great move.
I think in the case of Slapton Sands/Exercise Tiger, it wasn’t so much a conspiracy in the classic sense, but rather that it was just overlooked after a certain period of time. I mean, yeah it was secret, but the whole exercise was secret, as it was a rehearsal for D-Day. This meant that there wasn’t any specific cover up for the E-Boats getting in among the landing craft, but rather that it was all kept secret as part of the pending D-Day secrecy preparations. And after that, it was just sort of overlooked and/or lumped in with the D-Day casualties.
I think that in the information distribution environment that they had back then, if things didn’t get reported on in the print media or radio media immediately, they were extremely likely to get documented in some fashion, then quietly forgotten. Even stories that DID get reported on often didn’t go far or have staying power in the public consciousness and sort of evaporated away once it was reported, because looking stuff like that up years later was difficult and time consuming, unlike today.
I don’t find it unlikely at all that Exercise Tiger/Slapton Sands was documented fully as something like “training accidents” and just quietly forgotten / relegated to obscurity, rather than actively and deliberately covered up for 30-40 years.
As far as ENIGMA and the breaking of the Japanese codes goes, I suspect the number of people who were truly privy to that was very small. Even the Allied field commanders got summarized intelligence reports without any indication as to its provenance- often it was a combination of Ultra/Enigma information and other intelligence. And those summaries were distributed by “Special Liaison Officers” who would let them read it, then take the summaries back and destroy them. There was a concerted effort to keep the source of the Ultra intelligence very secret, even from high-level Allied commanders.
So I bet that while a whole lot of people knew that the Allies had some sort of “secret weapon” in terms of intelligence, a very few knew exactly what that was. And as usual, the fewer who actually know what the secret is, the easier it is to keep.
And British intelligence played a longer game than most, in that it didn’t always act on the intelligence, even going so far as to allow Coventry to be bombed, so as to not tip their hand about their decryptions. And they went so far as to consistently provide plausible alternative sources about where their intelligence came from- say an Ultra decrypt said that German troops were somewhere, they’d claim it came from the French Resistance, or they’d set up reconnaissance flights, and claim that’s where they found out about it from.
Basically my contention is that both of those weren’t conspiracies, and they conform to the usual norms that are in place for secret things.
Thank you, and yes, that’s pretty much what I’m saying. It’s a weak angle to attack a conspiracy theory from and is also entirely unnecessary when there is the mountain of positive evidence of the witnesses to the event testifying that it did in fact occur.
Keep telling yourself that if it’s what you need to believe to sleep soundly through the night. Hey, you fit in great in conspiracy threads! You’re the only one here who noticed the ‘bad argument’ that I’m making that’s hidden in the text of what I actually wrote! You’re special and can see the hidden truth that the rest of the sheeple in this thread are blind to!
That’s pretty much my reading of it as well, but a couple of corrections: the casualties were lumped in with the casualties from the Normandy campaign, not those specifically from D-Day; that would have caused a noticeable spike and discrepancy that some historian would have looked into long before 44 years had passed. Casualties from the Slapton Sands exercises (797 dead) greatly exceeded the actual casualties suffered by these units in the D-Day landings, they were landed on Utah beach on D-Day where the 4th Infantry Division only suffered 197 casualties (both wounded and dead). The other correction would be that those involved in Exercise Tiger as well as British civilians who were aware of the debacle were specifically told not to talk about this specific clusterfuck, and the decision to do so was taken on the grounds of the effect it would have on morale should the story get out.
That the order not to talk about it was never rescinded probably owes more to bureaucratic incompetence than malice, but notably those told not to talk about it weren’t spooks or members of an organization tasked with handling secret information. They were thousands of average Joes who enlisted or were drafted into ordinary, run of the mill Navy or Army units who kept their mouths shut about what actually occurred for 44 years because they had been told not to talk about it.
Yes, this. Derleth is a dipshit for claiming you said something you didn’t and then berating you for fictional shit you didn’t say.