Contact with the Great Beyond--Psychics like Praagh

Great Debates
1381

[Dr. Nick voice]Hi everybody![/Dr. Nick]

I just got back from doing my duty as an American citizen. Yep, that’s right. I was on a jury. :slight_smile: Man, the things you miss when you’re gone for a few days.

If anybody’s been “run off” Lekatt, it’s the people who’ve gotten sick of your Rain-Man like refusal to consider anything that doesn’t come from a pro-nde, pro-psychic source. Total obstinacy.

I notice that, once again, after saying you wouldn’t respond any more you did. If you’re going to leave, then leave. Otherwise start being honest and stop avoiding questions and statements that refute your varied claims.

1382

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SimonX *
**Praagh’s take on skeptics:

[quote]

“Naturally, there remain skeptics about what his abilities. James, however, is the first to say that he welcomes healthy skepticism, declaring, in fact, that he is a skeptic himself.”

So…is he skeptical about himself? :smiley:

What’s the term for someone who thinks they might be lieing, but does it anyway…

1383

Reincarnation was most often explicitly rejected by American and British spiritualists, until about 1872-75, when those who would become Theosophists began to shift spiritualism’s focus to Buddhism and other Eastern religions.

The French strain of spiritualism, on the other hand, included an acceptance of reincarnation from the mid 1850s, through the influence of the writings of the “spiritist” Allen Kardec.

1384

In the context of this discussion, the “honest man” who is uncheatable would have to be someone who is willing to turn aside from the temptation to believe that there is some free lunch in the universe, some extraordinary and personalized comfort and benefit that abrogates natural laws, despite all the evidence that natural laws are universal and–well, natural.

1385

Some things I have noticed posting here:

Many people on this board make me the issue instead of directing their comments to the ideas being debated.

Words are changed and twisted to suit the person posting instead of being sure the quote is correct. Some times a poster will substitute words: untrue becomes liar; ability becomes power, etc. and then attack on the basis of the changed wording. Some will take for granted other’s misquoted posts and attack without checking them out.

Many claim I don’t answer their questions. Sometimes I have answered their questions, but they don’t like the answer so they just keep asking, as if they can force the answers into something they want to believe. Sometimes I don’t answer their questions because they are couched in abusive language or are not really questions at all, just accusations. Then I am sure that I do miss some. There are a large number of people posting and it is easy to do so. If the question is honest, ask again. I rarely answer posts that fragment my paragraphs into phrases and tear them apart. These posts never address the main point and are really not asking anything, just bashing.

Spirituality, Psychics, Near Death Experiences are all fields of study that have their own language, idioms, and definitions. The amount of knowledge of these fields displayed by skeptical posters is small and none. It is very difficult to hold a conversation about NDEs with someone who doesn’t understand what they are about. I would hope more knowledge of these fields were apparent here, but it’s not, and I really don’t think the skeptical posters desire to learn, only to bash.

I have read books by Hawkins, Roger Penrose, Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Bertrain Russell, and other noted scientists. I want to know. I am not satisfied with anything less than the truth. I am not interested in exchanging insults with skeptics. I am interested in exchanging ideas and ideas only.

If you will not read outside your own skeptical material you will not learn and growth in knowledge. I encourage reading material you disagree with as much as you read the material comfortable for you.

In my opinion skepticism is an illogical position. The things most attacked by them are things than can not be proven either way. If you believe in evolution and are an atheist, you have no anchor, no purpose, no meaning in your life except what you make up for yourself. But the most important thing is you have no spiritual training for handling the turmoil of life and controlling vasillating emotions.

I know none of what I say here will change anything, but it was good to say it. OK.

Love
Leroy

1386

That would seem to be proof against a number of conmen who are running scams.
Does anyone have the transcript for the 20/20 from June 21, 1999, the one with JVP on it?
I’m just asking before i spend my $20.

Allegedly the content includes:

Lekatt would this be enough to persuade you that JVP is a fake?

Lekatt what persuade you that JVP is a fake?

1387

Some things I have noticed posting here:
Many of your posts on this board make you and your personal experience the issue instead of directing your comments to the ideas being debated.

“I don’t think we’re [here] for anything, we’re just products of evolution. You
can say ‘Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don’t think there’s a
purpose’ but I’m anticipating a good lunch.”
-Dr. James Watson, Nobel laureate Biophysicist, co-discoverer of DNA

“Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the
improbable. . . A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had)
the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ass: he is
actually ill.” -Henry Lewis “H.L.” Mencken

1388

Help me out here. What is the significant difference between the definitions of “ability” and “power”?

1389

I think there’s truth to that. There’s a corollary: There’s no bigger sucker than someone who thinks they’re about to make someone else (or the world) a sucker.

Take a pyramid scheme, for example. Everyone who joins a pyramid scheme and who understands the math, must believe that they are acting on the chance that they can take money out of the pockets of those who come later into the scheme. This is why everyone in the scheme is a perp, even though they may think of themselves as a victim when the scheme collapses.

Many of these people may work themselves into a belief that they are not cheating others, but are spinning straw into gold–through the power of positive thinking, which can not only bend spoons, but make it rain money from the sky. But they, too, are expecting the universe to deliver them a free lunch.

1390

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lekatt *
**If you will not read outside your own skeptical material you will not learn and growth in knowledge. I encourage reading material you disagree with as much as you read the material comfortable for you.[/qoute]

It might surprise you but I was once a very credulous person. I was even a member of MUFON, if you can believe that. So don’t be too quick to assume we can’t relate to your position.

Two things: Evolution and atheist are not synonyms. For example, I’m a theistic evolutionist. The second thing is this, you seem to imply (again) that evolution hasn’t been proven.

It has, this is not the thread for it, but if you wish to start a thread about evolution then do so.

1391

Shoot, I screwed up the coding on the post above, MY response is up is this:

1392

You made yourself an “issue.” Your claims have been torn apart and you continue to turn that into a personal attack. The statements about you personally have been observations on your inability to debate well and your denial of logic.

Semantics. You insist on specific words and don’t consider any others that are used synonymously. You also deny your own posts when they are quoted back at you word for word. You lie.

Nonsense. Your posts are deconstructed in exactly the same way as many others by other members. Separating a post into phrases simply makes it easier to respond to each point. Naturally nobody can be expected to respond to many different posters at once. You think we keep asking because we don’t like the answers; I say it’s because you don’t really answer them. You repeat your personal dogma and constantly cite the same tired sources, and are condescending at that.

We’ve read the material you’ve linked, and, although I can’t speak for everybody, I’ve read other material about those topics. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I feel I have a basic knowledge, and what I’ve read is unconvincing to say the least.

Yet you show no interest in learning anything that doesn’t support the views you already cling to.

If you will not read outside your own credulous material you will not learn and grow in knowledge. I encourage reading material you disagree with as much as you read the material comfortable to you.

Do us all a favor. Don’t tell us what our lives are like, don’t tell us we have no meaning in our lives, and don’t tell us we don’t have the ability to deal with life’s difficulties. You have no idea about how any of us live or how we think. Atheists find their own anchor and purpose. Just because it may not be your own doesn’t make it inferior or nonexistent.

Logic isn’t perfect. If you work from any particular basic assumption you can come to a logical conclusion that may nevertheless be contradictory to reality. However, skepticism is based on the principle of evidence. It’s not illogical by any means, it merely relies on logic that is rooted in reality, not fantasy.

1393

Evolution is a theory and will remain a theory, no one saw early forms of man progress into later forms of man. That is just assumed that it happened that way. That is why they call it the theory of evolution. Also, many holes and gaps remain to be filled in the logical progression. Not by anyone’s truth has it been proven.

1394

When these words are applied to Psychics: ability is the talent a psychic develops to be able to communicate with the spiritual world. Psychics have ability, not power. Power is energy, it could be used to describe the power of love. Psychics can work with this power, channel it as in healing, but they do not “have” it. All power comes from God and is God. God is Love. We owe our existence to God who totally supports us, loves us, and keeps us safe and secure.

Hope this helps. Discernment is vital in understanding spirit.

Love
Leroy

1395

I am fascinated that you regard yourself as a spiritualist and yet are opposed to evolution. The few spiritualists in the 19th century who decided they were anti-evolutionist regarded themselves as “anti-Darwinian” specifically. They also had to come up with an alternate explanation for the origin of human beings, which was that their spirits were “seeded” here on Earth into primate bodies, from elsewhere, probably from another planet. Do you subscribe to that?

1396

No where have I said I am opposed to evolution. I am not opposed to evolution, just opposed to people who regard it as truth. We do not know the truth of how the earth was formed and how we came to be, it is simple an unknown. That is how I look at all the theories, including Creation as stated in the Bible.

The truth is: we don’t know, and I stand with the truth.

1397

Gravity is a theory and will remain a theory, no one saw the force that pulls one mass to another mass. It is just assumed that it happens that way. That is why they call it the theory of gravity. Also, many holes and gaps remain to be filled in the logical progression. Not by anyone’s truth has it been proven.

1398

Lekatt what would persuade you that JVP is a fake?

1399

My post on the life of skeptics is my opinion and I have stated such. I realized the skeptics would feel different.

The older you get the more meaning in life becomes important.
You have seen a lot of things unexplanable by then and you are not so sure of yourself anymore.

A skeptical friend of mine ran into that changing experience a week ago. He was always teasing me about my beliefs and making fun. I saw him today as a changed man, he said his dad had died (they were very close) two weeks ago. He then showed me a physical item that was changed in a way to point to his father. He said “I just don’t understand how, but I do know dad was responsible.” I told him it was just a sign from his father, saying goodby, he was ok, not to worry. He nodded a yes.

This sort of thing happens frequently, almost everyone has a story to tell if they are asked. I didn’t supply details due to the personal nature of the item.

Now, I really don’t give a rat’s behind whether you believe it or not. But it did happen.

Love
Leroy

1400

You are the one obfuscating, Lekatt. You said you had a certain brittle ability, then you said that you had never said that. It’s that simple. Later you managed to create some obfuscation when someone used the word power rather than ability. But it makes no real difference.

You have become the subject (at least for me) for two reasons.

Firstly, you defend psychics and your beliefs on the basis of certain principles which I and many others consider nonsense. But when confronted with odd beliefs that you don’t like such as those of Doc Cathode, you throw those principles out the window, thereby showing that you actually don’t believe in the principles you use to defend psychics, except when it suits you, which shows just how weak those principles are.

Secondly, you defend psychics and your beliefs from a holier than thou high ground. You piously opine that psychics should be respected and not insulted without proof of their fraud. You go on and on about love and understanding and how if we all just had as much of that as you do, we’d all understand and everything would become clear. You are in the nauseating habit of signing your posts “love Leroy”. You preach about the sanctity of personal experience. But ultimately it turns out that you only actually believe that those who believe what you do should be respected, should not be insulted, should not have their personal experiences disbelieved, should not be blatantly and disrespectfully lied to.

I keep making these points over and again not as a personal attack as such, but to show that your defence of psychics is on shaky ground indeed.

Along the way, you get made to look like the hypocrite that you are. You made your bed. Lie in it.