A big problem is that for many, their local police is not like that. When there was a local BLM event, our police came out, and supported them. The chief of police was there, and he and his officers knelt along with them.
So, they don’t see the need for reform, or really the massive rebuilding and restructuring of our entire justice system that it needs, because it seems to be working just fine for them. Instead, they just see a threat to the status quo that they are enjoying.
In the meantime, while you ask people to wait patiently, people are being tortured, dehumanized, and killed by the system that you think just needs a couple of adjustments to.
How long do you expect people to wait? If you have a knee on your neck, do you want it removed now, or do you want it removed when people get around to it, a step at a time?
Here is a recent poll that shows how most Black Americans feel about policing:
This is not to say that policing doesn’t need fundamental reform in how it recruits, trains and administers it’s duties in the communities it serves.
…you aren’t listening.
You are too busy frothing at the mouth to realize I’ve said much more than “just chuck it all in the bin.” I’ve outlined the key areas that I think need to be addressed. And those areas simply cannot be addressed incrementally.
Its the typical American exceptionalist bullshit which prevents you from implementing Universal Healthcare or sensible gun control or settling student debt or the outrageous wage inequalities and the ridiculous minimum wage. You’ve allowed the system to get the way it has because decades ago bad actors decided that this was the way it should be done and everyone just went along with that.
You don’t have to settle for this. You can do better.
I’ll say it again for you.
America is the most incarcerated people in the world. 2 million locked up. More per head of population than Russia, than South Africa, more than Europe.
It is a situation that is completely and utterly fucked up. And you cannot look at what happened to Wright and ignore what it means to be black in America. Because your country was founded by slavery. The constitution which is so revered was drafted by a bunch of long dead white men to serve when men and it exists today to protect white men. You are living in a country that was founded on racist white supremacist principles and only a few months ago a white supremacist was President of your nation.
You can’t ignore that context when you talk about Wright. You can’t ignore that he entered the pipeline towards jail the moment he was born by virtue of nothing but the colour of his skin.
You think we should “hold both parties accountable for the tragic circumstances & outcome.” I don’t think we should do that at all.
The fact of the matter is that, even if it turned out that the charges eventually turned out to be wrong, that man would be just as dead.
Hey, guess what? Now it’s your turn to fuck off with that bullshit.
I’m not even native-born American nor do I subscribe to American exceptionalism. I’m for UHC and I loath guns and the 2nd A.
But good on you for lecturing me about not listening while repeating, again, what I have already acknowledged as a fundamental systemic problem that needs fixing.
I invite you blow it out your ass, you fatuous nitwit.
I worded that poorly. What I meant to say was that we should hold each party accountable for their respective actions. If you find that unreasonable then I guess we’ll both have to learnt to live with our disagreement.
FWIW, I also find that unreasonable. And the reason that I find it unreasonable is because it serves to minimize the accountability/responsibility of the officer who killed a person when she had no fear for her (or others) life.
We, as society, have decided that in cases of rape, that we won’t engage in victim blaming. Because it just serves to allow people to use that sort of thing to justify the bad behavior. That’s what we need to do for police shootings. What the victim did simply does not matter when you have a shooting like this. And bringing up the victim’s accountability is not simply unhelpful, it’s wrong.
You can’t separate the Wright incident from the broader system. Everything I said applied to the Wright incident. It’s wrong to expect someone (and Wright qualifies) who might reasonably have mortal terror of even routine interactions with law enforcement to avoid the behavior that mortal terror can cause. That he might also not want to be arrested is irrelevant. This is a ramification of a system that’s broken this badly – even supposed criminals (and we don’t know if Wright even did anything wrong in terms of what lead to the warrant) who are Black can reasonably have mortal terror of routine interactions with law enforcement.
The same principle applies to the slave-catching days, even if the details and gross injustice are different in degree – it’s impossible to morally blame an enslaved person for using deadly force in trying to escape. They were enslaved and subject to daily rape and torture – they can’t possibly be judged for using violence in trying to escape.
Respectfully, this is part of the difficult conversation we only pretend we are prepared to have but never do:
Every report I saw on the news this morning (CNN, MSNBC, PBS) spoke about the fact that Daunte Write was stopped for a mere expired tag violation. Not a word was said about the reason the stop escalated to an attempt to detain and arrest him for an outstanding warrant. The reporting makes it sound like he was shot for merely driving while black with expired tags.
I am not trying to absolve the cop of her responsibility and the charges against her for second degree murder are entirely justified.
I do not think that the victim deserved to be shot and killed for having an outstanding warrant or even attempting to flee.
All I am saying is that both parties are responsible for their role in the events that lead to this tragic outcome. But not only can we not say that, it appears that often the news serves in misrepresenting the facts through omission.
It is entirely unfair and inappropriate to bring up comparisons to rape in this context. This is nothing like rape or the disgusting victim blaming that sometimes takes place in those conversations.
Except that you are doing exactly that, so it’s not innapropriate. You say, “I am not trying to absolve the cop of her responsibility”, and “I do not think that the victim deserved to be shot and killed for having an outstanding warrant or even attempting to flee.”, but then go on to contradict yourself when you say " All I am saying is that both parties are responsible for their role in the events that lead to this tragic outcome."
If that can’t be summed up as, “I’m not victim blaming, I’m just saying that the victim was responsible in their role.” then would you like to try to rephrase what you are trying to say here?
It seems very similar to me. YMMV. Accountability weighing is literally trying to assign appropriate amounts of blame.
This directly contradicts what you just said.
It is a direct contradiction every fucking time you say it.
except that it seems that he may have been shot no matter what he did.
Wright was resisting and ended up dead.
George Floyd was high and ended up dead.
Rayshard Brooks was running away, unarmed and ended up dead.
Ahmaud Arbery was jogging and ended up dead
Laquan Mcdonald had a knife and ended up dead.
Casey Goodson had a sandwhich and ended up dead.
Philando Castille was cooperating and ended up dead.
Atatianna Jefferson was babysitting her nephew in her own home and ended up dead
Tyisha Miller was passed out in her own car and ended up dead.
Breonna Taylor was sleeping in her own bed in her own apartment and ended up dead.
Please tell me what actions can be taken and not ending up dead?
So we’re just gonna skip right past a trial and go straight to the hanging?
I’m not sure what more I can add to what I’ve already stated multiple times.
The victim did not deserve to be shot and killed despite an outstanding warrant and his attempt to avoid arrest. The cop is entirely responsible for the wrongful shooting. However, the fact that an attempt to detain him was based on the discovery of an existing warrant should not be glossed over as entirely immaterial.
There is a tendency to go from 0 to 100mph with respect to what conclusion many people reach in judging these events. In this case it seems to me that the conclusion is that Daunte was shot because he was black. Are we absolutely sure that was true? I understand that it’s reasonable to ask the question, but I’m not sure it is a foregone conclusion. Though many treat it as such.
In contrast, a recent event involving an assault on an military serviceman seems a far more likely a result of systemic racism. Fortunately, the cop responsible has been fired and the serviceman did not suffer far more serious injuries or death.
Fair enough. Allegedly commit…
It’s actually a lot more like an abused spouse. The abuser may very well be an important part of the abused’s life, do genuinely good and valuable things as part of the relationship. But, at some point, the abuser does something inexcusable, something that they absolutely should not have done. Let’s say it’s a violent overreaction to something the spouse did.
We do not place any blame on the spouse for doing something because “she knew it would set him off”. We do not ‘advise’ the spouse to treat the abuser with caution, to avoid doing the things that make him lash out. We do not tell the abused that she should let him do what he wants and complain later, when he won’t be violent.
We do not do these things because we know it isn’t her job to manage his rages, it is his. It is not the young black man’s job to manage police violence.
Andre Hill was holding a cell phone and no crime had been committed and ended up dead.
Hill laid on the ground for several minutes in pain after being shot 3 times. None of the cops spoke to him or attempted to comfort or render any aid. They called an ambulance, but that was it.
I’m with QuickSilver on this and I understand what he/she is trying to say. Officer Potter did not attempt to taser Wright because of expired tags; she did so because there was a warrant for his arrest and he was again attempting to resist arrest. If Potter had pulled the taser instead of her gun then her response might be considered appropriate.
But of course she didn’t. She killed a young man who in no way deserved to die. The manslaughter charges on Potter are entirely appropriate.
We really need to come to grips with why so many black men end up in our judicial system. IMO it is by far the biggest blight in American society. The short answer is racism but how do we reverse it?
How do we reconcile this with the fact that 81% of Black Americans want the same or more policing in their communities? Are black communities gluttons for punishment? I don’t believe so. It seems to me that many, if not majority of Black Americans have largely positive views of police and their interactions. Most, according to the poll, seem to believe that a present police force provides a valuable service in the community.
And yet, there are those who have very legitimate concerns about systemic problems with racism in policing. The facts in many of the cases you cite and others not cited seem indisputable.
So what shall we make of these two seemingly contradictory facts?
The conclusion that I draw is that perhaps we ought not to rush to lump all negative police interactions in black communities as being racially motivated. Sometimes interactions with the police go badly wrong and it’s not due to racial bias. Sometimes suspects make poor decisions/mistakes that lead to tragedy. Sometimes police make poor decisions/mistakes that lead to tragedy. Sometimes there is overlap.