Liar. Your constant repeating of this claim proves you have no wish to debate in good faith.
Why are more young black men shot by police than any other group? Because they are more dangerous than any other group. Even the sources you accept show that.
And yet, rather than accept that and move on, you argue about the source of reports and ignore the fact that it’s reasonable for the cops to believe that young black men are a greater risk to them than anyone else.
No, I’m not lying. You cited a blog that said 14 but had no statistical backing. It’s supposed source was a broken link. I pointed this out multiple times but you kept using it. I’m not sure why you’re so attached to it. It’s not a huge deal, or a huge difference – just something unsupported some guy on the internet said with no backing (unlike the 6-9 numbers).
So 1000 times difference in shootings would be okay? 1 million times? That argument justifies any increased violence against young black men, and that’s not acceptable to me. Maybe there is a good justification for the 21 times shooting disparity, but the fact of the 6-9 times difference in criminal stats isn’t enough.
No, I just don’t accept that difference in criminal stats justifies any amount of increased police shootings. There are numbers that might actually be justified, but that doesn’t mean that any difference in the numbers would be justified. I’m trying to get to the bottom of the 21 times number – I’m not just going to accept that 21 times is acceptable because of some (significantly smaller) difference in crime stats.
Wasn’t me that cited it…
It’s not acceptable to you… why, exactly? Why would you expect it to be a linear relationship? Just saying it’s not acceptable doesn’t really mean much. Especially as you’re cherry picking the stats that suit you best.
Because young black men are significantly more dangerous than any other group - around an order of magnitude more dangerous. If you don’t understand why that would mean the police are far more likely to need to use force in self defence against young black men, and far more likely to fear violence from them, I’ve no idea how to explain it to you
I’ll ask again. If it were about racism, rather than because of the actual danger, why aren’t older black men or black women being shot at the same rates?
Also, cite for the difference being significantly smaller? I’m not going to do the calculations myself, it’s your claim so either do them or cite them.
Okay, then you can stop using it. This was the original link, and it has no source (or a broken source to what appears to be a white supremacist website). The government stats say 6-9 times.
The explanation is not acceptable. “Okay, the crime stats are different, so 21 times is perfectly okay” is not acceptable. Maybe there’s an explanation that’s acceptable for the 21 times, but the difference in crime stats is not it. I’m not satisfied that all is well with the numbers, especially considering how different they are.
So 1000 times would be fine? No worries? How about 1 million times? What if every young black male in the US was shot by police? Would any disparity be justified by the differing crime stats?
I take it to the absurd to show that this is not an actual justification, just an excuse. An actual justification would involve statistical analysis and not just “the crime stats are different so a higher value is okay”.
They might well be – I haven’t seen such numbers for black women and older black folks. But this wouldn’t tell us much about any motivation, since it may be that racism against young black males by police comes in the form of shooting, while racism against other black folks by police may have other forms (non-fatal violence, increased harassment, etc.).
The disparity in murder rates is about 6 to 8 times (another source with actual numbers had 9 times – don’t have that handy).
Cite that the difference is significant, please, preferably with an explanation of why you used a particular degree of significance.
Just saying the figures are different doesn’t prove anything, and neither does your refusal to say why the difference is unacceptable to you. I assume you must have some reason to assume it’s significant, either from your calculations or someone elses, so I don’t know why you won’t share it.
Where have I insisted that anything is proven? I’m saying that I find the disparity of 21 times troubling, and I have not heard or read any sufficient explanation that this is not at least partially explained by racist (or otherwise unfair) treatment by police. There may be another explanation, but I haven’t heard it, so I’m still troubled.
The 21 times number might be fine. But I’m not going to just accept that it’s fine, and I’m troubled that most police departments don’t seem to record such data or cooperate in this kind of fact-finding.
If every young black male threatened the cops, or acted in a way that could reasonably be considered a threat then yes.
Let’s take your smallest figure. Say that a cop will be 6 times more likely to be shot in an encounter with a young black man than anyone else. How do you quantify how much more fear he’s entitled to be in? And why would you assume that amount of shooting scales linearly with the amount of fear?
You seem to be saying that policemen (and everyone else) should ignore their completely legitimate, statistically backed belief that young black men are a greater threat to them than anyone else. Why?
You’ve not just said it’s troubling, you’ve said it’s unacceptable, and more importantly that it’s significant. Are you even going to attempt to back up the latter? Just saying that the numbers are different, therefore it’s significant, is ridiculously innumerate, so I hope that’s not what you’re saying.
So in the present world, then you agree that such numbers (1000 times, a million, etc.) would not be acceptable, I take it. Why are you absolutely fine with 21 times without any further questions or concerns? What is the number at which you might say “maybe this is too many”?
I don’t know the answer, but I’m not going to just accept that the cops are doing everything is fine and nothing is wrong without some justification. That they might feel more fear isn’t an actual justification to shoot people more often, unless each and every one of the shootings is entirely justified. Considering how often videos (including the indisputable ones, like Sean Groubert, and the cop who shot the fleeing guy then planted evidence on him) show unjustified shootings, and that these shootings would have been considered fine without the video evidence, I’m highly skeptical that all of these shootings are entirely justified.
No, I’m saying that I’m not satisfied with this as an explanation for the 21 times disparity. Further, I’m saying that if cops are behaving differently around all black people because of some fear, then this is wrong and makes America worse, since the vast majority of black people have done nothing wrong and do not deserve any different treatment. Treating black people differently is wrong and makes it more likely that black people in the future will behave differently. It increases future risk to the police, and further damages any relationship between the police and black community.
For most of American history, black people were mistreated by the police. Since I trust that most black people are as accurate, truthful, and honest as they were throughout American history about the treatment of black people, I believe them when (as a group) they say that black people are still mistreated by police, in lesser but still significant ways.
I’ve said that your explanation is unacceptable. The disparity might be unacceptable, or it might not be, but so far I haven’t seen an actual explanation…
Given that the odds of a cop being shot by a white person are virtually fuck all, it follows that the odds of a cop being shot by a black person are six times virtually fuck all, which is still virtually fuck all. Therefore, they shouldn’t be that scared…unless they’re just pussies?
For fuck’s sake, being a garbage man is more dangerous than being a cop!
As a juror, you are expect to listen to all of the evidence before you condemn the accused. I assume that includes any narrative the defense may present. YMMV.
“I don’t know but I don’t like it, so it must be wrong!!”
The chance of a white person getting shot by the cops is virtually fuck all, it follows that the odds of a black person being shot by a cop are 21 times virtually fuck all, which is still virtually fuck all. So, they shouldn’t be scared of the cops, unless they’re all just pussies.
Why do you think all black people are pussies? Are you a racist?
Next time, try some actual thought with your post.
Yep. And even if they believe the defendant to be lying, all they can do is ignore that evidence, they can’t decide that it’s evidence of the opposite.
Civilians shot 16 cops last year. Cops shot nearly 500 civilians last year. It’s far more reasonable for a civilian to be scared of a cop than for a cop to be scared of a civilian, especially since, as numerous videos now show, cops don’t necessarily care if the civilians they kill are even armed.
Talking sense to you is like trying to show a card trick to a fucking dog, you know that?
No, it’s not reasonable for anyone to be scared of a cop as long as they obey the law, and do what the cop tells them.
If someone would try talking sense to me, I’d be able to judge that. Not happening in this thread, though.
The US has about 800,000 police officers. (Cite.) It also has about 320 million civilians.
That means, per your numbers, that a police officer has a 1 in 50,000 chance of being shot by a civilian, whereas a civilian has only a 1 in 640,000 chance of being shot by a cop.
Since it’s 13 times more likely that a civilian will shoot a cop than vice versa, it is far more reasonable for a cop to be scared of a civilian, especially since, as this thread now shows, civilians don’t necessarily care about cops’ lives.
Oh, and your stats are way wrong, an order of magnitude out. A quick Google suggests that there’s around 1.1 million cops in the US, from a population of around 350 million. So, that means (based on your stats for shootings) a cop has a 0.0015% chance of being shot by a civilian, and a civilian a 0.00014% chance of being shot by the police.
If you want to say both of them are basically fuck all, go for it, but don’t ignore the fact that cops are over 10 times more likely to be shot by civilians than the other way round.
And you accuse me of not talking sense…
ETA my cite for 1.1 million - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#Number_of_police
Looks to include non-police employees of the police as well.
LOL. Is it at all possible to consider that, just maybe, what I’m saying is what I actually believe? That I really see that 21 times disparity as not a definite, confirmed problem but as a possible problem that maybe, just maybe, we should try and get to the bottom of? That there’s a possibility (not a definite, confirmed perfect truthful final decision but just a reasonable possibility) that maybe the historic mistreatment of black people by police has continued to this day in a lesser but still significant degree?
I thought we had gotten over the childish stuff before, but maybe I was wrong.
If you are unwilling to explain what makes you think it’s significant, what makes your belief actually based on anything, then there’s no reason to take it seriously. You may well believe it, but if you can’t justify that belief then you shouldn’t do so.
Yes, it’s possible that the reason for more young black men being killed than any other group (including all other black people) is because of continuing racism, but since it applies only to a specific subset of black people, and can be explained by other reasons that also explain why it’s not happening to other black people, it’s not a particularly realistic explanation.