Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread

[GreysonCarlisle]

@Shodan

Since 72% or so of black children in the US are born to a single mother, and since most live in homes with a father absent, and since a clear majority of those who engage in criminal behavior lack a father, it’s a fairly safe bet that “most of the people, black or white, who wind up getting shot resisting arrest or fleeing didn’t have the benefit of their father”.

Ah, but then there’s this, which mostly demolishes your argument:

…the latest data finds that the stereotypical gender imbalance in this area doesn’t hold true, and dads are just as hands-on when it comes to raising their kids.

That includes African-American fathers.

In fact, in its coverage of the study, the Los Angeles Times noted that the results “defy stereotypes about black fatherhood” because the CDC found that black dads are more involved with their kids on a daily basis than dads from other racial groups

[Steophan]

@septimus

And please answer this one for us:
(5) You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?

Because I was dying of thirst in the desert, and had the vain hope that the tiny amount of shade beneath the tortoise would contain enough moisture to sustain me. It did not, and I had no energy remaining to flip it back.

OR

I had sufficient water, but no food, and nothing around to kill the tortoise with, so I did what I had to to survive.

[Folacin]

@Shodan

The large majority of the time, when the police shoot someone, it is perfectly justified and there should be no consequences.

And you conclude this why? I believe it is probably true (I know a number of officers who I believe are well trained), but we have a number of recent cases where the police claimed a shooting was perfectly justified, right up until video surfaced showing it wasn’t.

This leads people to the arguably reasonable assumption that, absent video demonstrating it was a justified shooting, at best we have no idea if it was or not.

[eschereal]

@Steophan

@septimus

And please answer this one for us:
(5) You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?

Because I was dying of thirst in the desert, and had the vain hope that the tiny amount of shade beneath the tortoise would contain enough moisture to sustain me. It did not, and I had no energy remaining to flip it back.

OR

I had sufficient water, but no food, and nothing around to kill the tortoise with, so I did what I had to to survive.

OK, septimus, do not ask him to tell you about his mother.

[Shodan]

@GreysonCarlisle

Ah, but then there’s this, which mostly demolishes your argument:

No, actually it doesn’t. We were - at least I was - talking about children who are born out of wedlock and grow up without their fathers in the home.

Your cite says

Pew estimates that 67 percent of black dads who don’t live with their kids see them at least once a month, compared to 59 percent of white dads and just 32 percent of Hispanic dads.

I would expect that a child who lives with his or her father would see him more often than once a month. Thus the much larger percent of black fathers who are absent from the home means that a much larger percent of children have less-to-no contact with their fathers.

Maybe black absentee fathers talk to their kids more, but that isn’t the point. Asian and white fathers aren’t absentee to nearly the degree that black ones are.

Regards,
Shodan

[Shodan]

@Czarcasm

1. Nobody has said that.

Yes they did, you persistently silly person.

@Fear Itself

@Shodan

What should be the consequences for a cop who makes this kind of honest mistake? Reprimanded? Fired? Jail? Civil liability?

Jail. Make an example of them for the next cop who is inclined to shoot first and ask questions later.

See how it says right there that he believes a cop who makes an honest mistake should go to jail?

OK, you don’t, but we can all see why.

Regards,
Shodan

[iiandyiiii]

I don’t know about going to jail in all circumstances, but “it was an honest mistake” isn’t a good enough defense (for police departments in general, as well as individual cops), IMO, if society and culture and training and the like are leading to a significantly greater likelihood of making such “honest mistakes” with young black men and black women than with other groups.

[Fear_Itself]

@Shodan

See how it says right there that he believes a cop who makes an honest mistake should go to jail?

A mistake that results in the death of an unarmed person must have consequences. Patting a cop on the head and saying, “That’s OK, you did your best” just encourages reckless behavior in the future.

At least you are admitting a cop made a mistake. I guess we should be grateful that needle moved.

[Czarcasm]

@Shodan

Yes they did, you persistently silly person.
See how it says right there that he believes a cop who makes an honest mistake should go to jail?

OK, you don’t, but we can all see why.

This is “reality” when viewed through the ass of a cop, folks.

[Chisquirrel]

Wait, we’re arguing that a police officer that commits manslaughter shouldn’t face jail time?
Because an “oopsie” that results in someone’s death is manslaughter, right?

[Czarcasm]

@Chisquirrel

Wait, we’re arguing that a police officer that commits manslaughter shouldn’t face jail time?
Because an “oopsie” that results in someone’s death is manslaughter, right?

And if this “oopsie!” involves lying and/or a coverup?

[eschereal]

@Czarcasm

And if this “oopsie!” involves lying and/or a coverup?

Maybe police reports should carry the weight of sworn testimony – since they do get used as evidence – and thus be subject to prosecution for perjury.

[k9bfriender]

@eschereal

Maybe police reports should carry the weight of sworn testimony – since they do get used as evidence – and thus be subject to prosecution for perjury.

Why is that? It’s not as if you would get into trouble if you lied to the cops.

[Czarcasm]

@eschereal

Maybe police reports should carry the weight of sworn testimony – since they do get used as evidence – and thus be subject to prosecution for perjury.

Maybe cops who stand by and look the other way should not be called “good cops” anymore-they should be called “accessories”?

[SteveG1]

@eschereal

Maybe police reports should carry the weight of sworn testimony – since they do get used as evidence – and thus be subject to prosecution for perjury.

It wouldn’t matter, because “testilying”.

[Rick_Kitchen]

Stephon Clark was shot six times in the back.

Stephon Clark was shot six times in the back by police, independent autopsy...

[asahi]

Regarding the latest incident, this is going to be a difficult manslaughter or murder case if the DA decides that’s the route he wants to take. I admit that I probably don’t have all the facts, but if my understanding of the situation is correct, Stephon Clark was identified as behaving suspiciously, trespassing and looking into various cars in the neighborhood. The behavior was suspicious enough that someone in the neighborhood reported it to local police who then observed (and apparently recorded) the ensuing pursuit from a helicopter above. The officers on the ground then found Clark and approached him, telling him to stop. However, he disobeyed those commands and fled on foot. Officers followed him into his grandmother’s backyard.

The question is, is there evidence that the officers behaved unreasonably in making the split-second conclusion that Clark had a weapon an unloading their clip in his torso? Obviously, nobody likes the outcome, but if I were a juror, this is one case in which I would find it hard to find the officers guilty of criminal negligence or murder. Of course this assumes my understanding of the facts is accurate, which may be the case.

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

He doesn’t appear to be running away in the video. The family is doing its own autopsy, and I expect we will hear about it if the wounds are in the back. I don’t think they will be found to be so - call it a hunch.

Regards,
Shodan

@Rick_Kitchen

Stephon Clark was shot six times in the back.
Stephon Clark was shot six times in the back by police, independent autopsy finds

Shodan, care to respond to this?

[bobot]

Hey, hey- so he was shot 6 times in the back. He wasn’t only shot 6 times in the back, alright?

[asahi]

@iiandyiiii

Shodan, care to respond to this?

Even if the wounds are in the back, it’s going to be hard to substantiate criminal negligence. They approached Clark in a dimly lit area after having pursued him engaging in suspicious activity.

I am more than happy to criticize police brutality and misconduct when there’s clear evidence of it, but this is not the strongest case, IMO. Clark’s conduct contributed to his own death.