This isn’t just about the individual cops – do law enforcement systems and institutions teach de-escalation, and discourage unnecessary escalation? Is escalation ever punished? Are they taught that force is an appropriate response to non-threatening disrespect? Are they taught always to back up their fellow cops, even if they disagree? Are they taught never to “snitch” on their fellow cops?
Except, it also kind of is. Or maybe very much is. In another current Pit thread, there is an ugly story about a very ugly police department (also in New Jersey, but way up the other way). That story mentions an incident of the local police department doing a wink-wink-nudge-nudge-know-what-I-mean over a teen kegger. Which is a big part of the problem. Wildwood Beach looked like it was fairly large and non-vacant, yet these two semi-officers descended upon this one spot, for reasons that are not made clear, and started harassing these two lasses.
My point is that the law is, by requirement, impartial: anyone in violation is in violation. However, it must be enforced by humans, who are rather the very opposite of impartial. They might let this one thing over here slide, but that other more trivial thing might get someone’s head caved in. Because, chemistry, I guess. If an officer responds to a person well, they might get a warning, but if that other person gets them a hair up their all, a chunk of hell could break loose (or maybe all of it).
It is really not possible to manage the arbitrary favoritism issue directly. It is an innate human trait, and the instances where a pass is given are barely noteworthy in the record. The only way to rein in favoritism is to simply rein in the police. Give them less power, so that there is less for them to abuse.
I guess you missed the part where Shodan said you should obey a lawful order. That said, the most sensible response to being given such an illegal order by the police would be to obey, sue afterwards, and enjoy living off the millions you recieve for a few minutes of humiliation.
How about if a cop starts kicking your head ? Or starts shooting at you ? You just stay there and take it all passively while grinning when you think all the money you’ll get if you will survive ? ( But be sure that the cop isn’t afraid while doing that or you won’t get a dime )
Steophan, you have lost all your credibility in this thread long ago. Now go away.
Just stop responding and put him on ignore.
If they start doing that then basically the only option is to put up with it and challenge it later, as they are armed and have backup. What do you think fighting back could ever achieve?
It is admittedly sad that it has to be this way, but if people could be trusted to only resist malicious and unlawful police action then it wouldn’t need to be like this. This thread proves that the vast majority of “resistance” is guilty people trying to avoid arrest.
no u
So you are saying one should actually obey any and all orders from a cop, whether legal or illegal?
You know, it’s possible to agree with most of what you say, while still disagreeing that punching a suspect in the face several times is a wrong way to subdue them.
As I mentioned, the product of mental disease or defect.
You didn’t surprise us. Too bad.
Regards,
Shodan
Ultimately yes, but for very different reasons. One should obey a legal order because it’s bothe legally and morally the right thing to do, as an effective police force is a necessary thing for a functioning society. One should obey the illegal order if it’s better for your self preservation, and deal with it in court later. That changes if the order is to harm yourself or another, which should be obvious and is something I’ve said before on here.
The other issue is that for the most part, you as an ordinary citizen don’t actually know whether the order is legal. Sometimes it can be so unclear that it has to go through several levels of appeals to higher courts to find out. This thread, again, proves how true this is. The confidence with which people state that a particular action is illegal only for multiple courts to find otherwise shows that quite clearly.=
That video clearly shows someone resisting arrest. That’s after refusing to identify herself. Even if the cop’s actions were wrong, and I doubt many people seeing that body cam footage would think they were, she was the one who escalated things by refusing the officer’s polite instructions to give her name, to not move away, and then fighting back when being cuffed.
That brutality was entirely unnecessary, and it’s entirely reasonable to criticize unnecessary brutality. Criticize not 100% perfectly complying with a cop’s verbal instructions too, if you want, but unnecessary brutality is much, much worse, morally speaking, then not 100% perfectly complying with a cop’s verbal instructions.
That’s really the key part of this and so many others of these incidents. People should comply with the instructions of police officers, but simply not complying, in a way that’s non-violent and presents no threat to anyone at all, doesn’t justify brutalizing a young girl. Brutalizing a young girl for no good reason is much, much worse than a non-violent retreat from and failure to answer questions from a cop.
This isn’t directed at you, Steophan, since I recognize that your unthinking terror of young people doing terrible things like playing loud music (to the point that you praised a convicted murderer who shot at fleeing teenagers as the type of person people should want as their neighbor) renders you incapable of reasonable judgment on situations like these, so no need to reply.
Exactly. You are advocating that a person do anything and everything that a cop might tell them to do, without resisting.
What about that guy that suffered a painful roadside anal cavity search? I’m sure it was harmful to him.
“Brutality” is such an absurd overstament of what happened there that I don’t think you can possibly be serious. She presented a threat when she fought back, that is not an issue that should be disputed as we literally have video footage that proves it, but I know what people here tend to think of video proof that disputes their preconceptions… So, the cops had every right to use force to stop her fighting back and subdue her. Until you accept that, there’s no possibility of meaningful debate, as you are starting from false premises.
I’m not saying the cops did absolutely nothing wrong, I’m saying that at worst they used slightly more force than strictly necessary. From the moment she refused to give her name, it was clear she was not going to do as she was required to do without being forced. And giving your name to the cops is a requirement, as is accepting a short detention. Even if it cuts into your sunbathing time.
It’s okay, the young people who don’t actually attack cops (she was walking away from the cops, and didn’t even physically react until after the cop began brutalizing her and she was face down in the sand) and might play loud music aren’t going to hurt you. These young folks aren’t a threat to you or anyone. You’re going to be okay.
Please seek help. It’s not normal to be so terrified by young people playing loud music or walking away from cops and reacting as normal people would do (trying to steady themselves and not choke on sand) when a cop starts brutalizing them. It’s not healthy to be so scared all the time, particularly scared of people that pose no threat to you or anyone. It’s not healthy or normal to praise someone who shot at fleeing teenagers as someone normal people would want around them.
So, a few rabbit punches are OK as far as you’re concerned. Would you ever draw a line? What if the cop threw an elbow or three? Used his knee to break her nose?
No, she physically reacted when he attempted to cuff her. By no standards any sane person (or even me) uses is a cop attempting to cuff a suspect brutality. Nothing he did can reasonably be consider “brutal”. Not all force is violence, not all violence is brutality, and sometimes each of them can be necessary.
And it’s not about me getting hurt. It’s about people who have so little respect for society that they not only refuse to acknowledge but actively fight against their representatives. You think you should be allowed to sit next to someone else’s booze regardless of your age? I agree, it’s a stupid law. But if you’re breaking it, even if you disagree strongly with the law, you don’t have the right to refuse the police demands and the fight back against them.
I’m glad the body camera was on. If we only had the short, original footage that simply showed the punches it would have looked like a vast overreaction at minimum by the cops. But we have the full lead up, and it’s clear that some use of force to restrain her was necessary, and at worst the cop made a slight overreaction that deserves a slap on the wrist*. Something that I strongly suspect is true of the majority of these cases.
*That’s a metaphor, I’m not advocating violence
Why bother? You know he creams his jeans every time an officer shoots a negro, because, they were asking for it.
It’s okay, I understand that this almost hallucinatorily fictional rendering of the video comes from a place of terror. Your hallucinations and manifestations aren’t reality, they’re just a fiction created by an absolutely terror-stricken mind, and it’s not your fault.
It’s not your fault that you see brutality as acceptable, and that you see a convicted murderer who shot at fleeing children as someone normal people should want near them. These things aren’t your fault, but you need help to overcome them, and I sincerely hope you seek that help.